a handful of ship manifestos and an explanation for why there aren't more

[snick_backup]

I've been wanting to blather about shipping for a while, and then ever_neutral got me all inspired. So it's her fault. :)

My idea of 'shippy' tends to be pretty limited. Partly that's because, in general, I'm just not as interested in romantic relationships - in fiction or RL - as I am in other kinds of relationships. See for example the Spike-Dawn and Sam-Dean sibling relationships and the Buffy-Faith BFF relationship (which mostly exists only in my head).

There's other kinds of intimacy than sexual/romantic intimacy, is what I'm saying, and when you've already got serious chemistry of another kind, I don't necessarily see it as an improvement to add a sexual/romantic component. See Spike and Dawn, for example: Y'all know I adore them together, but even with Buffy out of the picture I can't ship them; I love the relationship they already have too much. When two characters (people) are already so close, sex/romance isn't necessarily more or better. Sometimes, it's just different.

Which isn't to say I don't ever ship anybody. I ship lots of people. Honest! Thinking about it, I end up grouping most of my hardcore ships into three categories: sweet/functional, twisted/bad/wrong and complex/interesting. (It is possible this covers the whole gamut; I dunno. Do you guys have other flavors of shippiness?)

* Spike/Buffy - comes in all three flavors! However, I much prefer complex/interesting (the Barbverse, for example) and sweet/functional (all my happy post-NFA Spuffy peeps!).

* Helo/Athena - I fell in love with them for the complexity. I love relationships that cross boundaries (race, species, chronological era) and struggle with lots of Big Weird Relationship Issues, which these two have in spades. (But they also both really care about each other and take big risks for their relationship, and I love that, too.

* Gaius/Six. For the twistedbadwrong first of all, because how incredibly screwed up these two are! But then for the hope that they could conceivably salvage something functional out of this mess. Those may be my favorite ships of all - the ones that should be unmitigated disasters, and aren't. (See also: Spike/Buffy.)

* Wes/Illyria - Again, Big Weird Issues. Does it get any weirder than these two?

* Spike/Dru - Because they do twistedbadwrong and sweet/functional at the same time.

* Faith/Giles - This is my oddball ship. Out of the whole list, this one has by far the least canonical support (and what little there is of it is of dubious canonicity anyway). This is the one ship where I consciously sat down and said, these two are more interesting romantically than otherwise. They're so different (stuffy old Englishman vs. streetwise smartmouth Boston girl) and yet so much alike (scarybad backgrounds, struggles for redemption, emotional vulnerabilities shuttered and barred, hidden darkness, wounds from years of fighting these supernatural battles, tattoos). She could shake him out of his funks; he could stabilize her frantic insecurities. They could be so good for each other. And also? Smokin' hot together.

* Zoe/Wash - Adorable and functional! Their love is open and direct, they're comfortable with each other, they're sexy together, they can laugh at each other, they're a bit quirky, they're committed, they're mature adults. Maybe most importantly, as important as they clearly are to each other, they don't define one another. Wash was a pilot before he met Zoe, and he still is. She was a soldier first, and she still is. They each continue to have important relationships outside the marriage.

* Kitty Charing / Freddy Standen (Cotillion, by Georgette Heyer) - Okay, yes, random book!ship, but I love these two so much. I don't think I have ever shipped any book pairing like I ship these two, because they are so perfect for each other. Freddy may be my favorite comedic hero ever - he's no intellectual and he cares ten times as much about clothes as I do, but he's also kind and gallant and thinks of others first, and on top of it all he is so wonderfully, unintentionally funny. And Kitty is warm-hearted and just as joyously frivolous as he is, and they end up liking each other so much despite themselves. I adore them.

Original entry posted at Dreamwidth. Feel free to reply here or there. ( DW replies)

Comments

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

LOL I'm very flattered to have inspired this post?? :D Good discussion.

Partly that's because, in general, I'm just not as interested in romantic relationships - in fiction or RL - as I am in other kinds of relationships.

No, me too! I value romantic love least of all possible forms of love. So, we agree on a basic level, but... react differently? Heh.

Though, I think I have to clarify that when I say "fascination" (like with Dean/Cas), that's quite different from the type of emotional attachment I have to, say, Spike and Dawn's friendship. I don't need to ship the latter because I'm interested in them in a completely different way. I think they're adorable. But I don't want to sit down and pick the complexities of their interactions apart for hours. (Also: A tad squicky.)

I think another place where I may differ is... sexual chemistry. It's... kind of a big thing for me? Haha. Imma admit to being pretty shallow here - I may sometimes be tipped over into shipping something purely on the basis of the actors' insane chemistry. With the stipulation, of course, that the dynamic already resonates or appeals to me intellectually. So, I already love Buffy-Faith and Wes-Faith on a non-shippy level, but the sexual chemistry leaps out at me so much that I can't resist. Not gonna lie.

I totally see what you mean about Faith/Giles being more interesting in a romantic context. I have not really considered them much. You may be bringing me around.

Gaius/Six. For the twistedbadwrong first of all, because how incredibly screwed up these two are! But then for the hope that they could conceivably salvage something functional out of this mess. Those may be my favorite ships of all - the ones that should be unmitigated disasters, and aren't.

YES! I feel like I have not demonstrated sufficient squee about Gaius/Six? Because, OTP. And what you say about how it SHOULDN'T work, but DOES. Word.

And - to ramble some more - sometimes I'll ship something because it doesn't work. Which sounds strange and pointless, but bear with me. "Shipping" to me doesn't necessarily mean rooting for two characters to end up together. Most of my beloved ships are terribly d00med - and I wouldn't have them any other way? I'm just inordinately fond of the idea that love can destroy just as often as it can redeem/heal, etc. I think this is where we diverge on Lee/Kara. I don't actually disagree at all with your view that they're a trainwreck when they're not just friends. But -- I LIKE that trainwreck? The trainwreck is more real to me than most relationships that do work. (And I am revealing my utter pessimism here, but whatever.) And at the end of the day - they're still each other's best friend in the entire world, romance or not. So I don't feel like I've lost in any way at all.

lol, I talk too much. I should just freaking make my own post.

[next_to_normal]

The trainwreck is more real to me than most relationships that do work. (And I am revealing my utter pessimism here, but whatever.)

OMG will you be my therapist because I think you just diagnosed my shipping tendencies. LOL

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA CLEARLY WE ARE ALREADY EACH OTHER'S THERAPISTS. Yeah... Sometimes I see people complaining about Joss or whoever's apparent inability to write functional relationships or happy endings - and how that's unrealistic, because X knows plenty of happy couples irl. And I'm like, "LOL WHAT'S THAT LIKE??"

/fatalism

lol @ "diagnosing" shipping tendencies. Like some chronic disease. Indeed.

[next_to_normal]

HAHAHAHAHA WE CLEARLY ARE.

Our shipping tendencies are totally a chronic disease. It's relationship dysfunctionitis or something.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

RELATIONSHIP DYSFUNCTIONITIS. HAHAHAHAHA.

We should start a group.

[snickfic]

I do definitely see a difference between Dean-Castiel and Spike-Dawn. Something to do with emotional engagement, maybe? Dean-Castiel is very highly emotionally charged. And now that I think about it, when I think 'slashy' what I'm really thinking of is 'emotionally charged.' (This is partly why the Arthur/Eames ship in Inception fandom threw me for such a loop - the other part being that I had to scratch my head and ask, "Which one was Eames, again?")

So would you say all emotionally charged relationships necessarily have a sexual component? Or, to take care of your caveat, that they all have either a sexual component or a, hmm, familial component?

I totally see what you mean about Faith/Giles being more interesting in a romantic context. I have not really considered them much.

I'm still working out for myself why I feel this way. I think it's partly because I want equality in their relationship, and it seems to me a romance would be likelier to get them there; otherwise he's always going to be the wise older mentor figure. I think an actual relationship might level that playing field somewhat and force each of them through all sorts of personal boundaries and awkwardness. They're both in desperate need of intimacy, and I don't think either of them is ever going to get it any other way.

YES! I feel like I have not demonstrated sufficient squee about Gaius/Six? Because, OTP. And what you say about how it SHOULDN'T work, but DOES. Word.

I've seen people argue the same for Saul/Ellen. How do you feel about them?

But -- I LIKE that trainwreck? The trainwreck is more real to me than most relationships that do work.

And this is where my biases come in, I think - just because a thing is realistic doesn't mean I want stories about it. Also, it seems to me that trainwreck relationships are easy but functional relationships are hard. Entropy, you know? So much harder to hurdle the obstacles and make the relationship work. I want to see that happen in my fiction, because I haven't figured it out myself yet. (That said, I can certainly see how some fictional trainwreck ships might appeal more than others.)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

So would you say all emotionally charged relationships necessarily have a sexual component? Or, to take care of your caveat, that they all have either a sexual component or a, hmm, familial component?

A tentative yes? Of course, I don't just want to put all relationships into specific boxes - but where fiction is concerned, the really emotionally resonant ones (for me) tend to be either deeply sexual or familial. In this sense, I understand why Wincest would be appealing to so many. I'll admit, I've often thought that if the Salvatore brothers on The Vampire Diaries weren't, you know, *brothers*, I would probably ship them quite hard.

And now that I think about it, when I think 'slashy' what I'm really thinking of is 'emotionally charged.' (This is partly why the Arthur/Eames ship in Inception fandom threw me for such a loop

Heh, this is interesting. I think banter is a Big Thing for a lot of people. I too tend to associate 'slashy' (or, 'shippy' in general) with 'emotionally charged'. What you say about Dean/Cas being very emotionally charged hits the nail on the head for me.

I've seen people argue the same for Saul/Ellen. How do you feel about them?

Haha, I like them okay? I think they do work. Well, apart from Saul murdering her and that whole thing. *rolls eyes*

Also, it seems to me that trainwreck relationships are easy but functional relationships are hard. Entropy, you know? So much harder to hurdle the obstacles and make the relationship work

Yeah, I definitely get what you mean. I totally haven't figured it out myself yet, either, but where I'm biased is that I... also apparently have no interest in figuring it out? As weird as that sounds. Probably that's just emotional immaturity, but I think it's also that I genuinely have never had any interest in it. Like, I never *once* fantasized about my wedding as a kid, you know? I don't have aspirations for it myself, so I don't desperately need to see it in my fiction. To conclude: shipping definitely has something to do with worldviews, whether we like it or not.

Hee. ~Interesting discussion~, this.

[snickfic]

I think banter is a Big Thing for a lot of people.

Yeah. I've come to realize that I Just Don't Get It. I mean, yes, I love wit and banter, but I'll toss puns and silly insults back and forth with anyone I can tease into playing; I have trouble seeing it as a shippy when people do it in fiction. (Also, how would anyone watch The West Wing without shipping everyone in sight?)

A lot of people enthuse about Spike/Buffy banter, but unless it's written such that there are already feelings behind it on one or both sides, I kind of don't care. And the two of them verbally going at each other's throats just for the heck it doesn't entertain me.

I... also apparently have no interest in figuring it out?

Heh. Well, I'm with you in not being horribly invested in finding a serious relationship of my own, and I never dreamed about weddings either. However, I have this idea that part of my disinterest comes from having just not seen enough relationships that did work, either in fiction or RL. This sounds pretentious, but I really do think the world could benefit from more fictional depictions of relationships that work - not simple happily ever afters, but stories in which the couple has to actually work at their relationship and deal with stuff and work out their own personal quirky solutions to relationship issues. I think those stories have real value and I wish more people were interested in telling them.

Which is not to pooh-pooh your interest in stories about other, less functional relationships. This is pretty much just me trying to work out where I'm coming from; I hope you don't mind. This has indeed been a very interesting discussion!

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Also, how would anyone watch The West Wing without shipping everyone in sight?

Hee, I think everyone does.

I definitely don't mind! I'm absolutely with you about the world benefiting from more realistic, healthier relationships in the media. I know a lot of people who have pretty fucked up ideas about romance, and undoubtedly it's society's old-fashioned/misoygnistic/Disney-fairytale-worshiping attitude towards romantic love that's had a hand in it.

[next_to_normal]

Also, how would anyone watch The West Wing without shipping everyone in sight?

LOL, let me tell you, West Wing fandom was truly eye-opening. I didn't really know about slash, and I wasn't particularly shippy about the show (except for a few canon couples), and then I went online and discovered that EVERYONE was secretly having sex with EVERYONE ELSE! I HAD NO IDEA!

[snickfic]

Hah! And see, I have no shippy feelings about that show at all except maybe for some mild CJ/Danny and Sam/Ainsley.

[next_to_normal]

I'll admit, I've often thought that if the Salvatore brothers on The Vampire Diaries weren't, you know, *brothers*, I would probably ship them quite hard.

Pfffft. Vampires are not deterred by silly things like INCEST.

(Hahaha, now I can imagine Damon getting it into his head to try to seduce Stefan, just because he knows Stefan's too uptight to ever agree to it.)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA yes, it'd definitely be less weird than it is to ordinary humans.

(DAMON WOULD TOTES DO THAT. BUT WHERE IS THE FIC???)

[next_to_normal]

WRITE IT!!!!!

Hahaha, the number of TVD fics I've told to you write for me... you'd think I actually read fic in this fandom or something. :)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Haha, you don't? I'm considering tackling some of these ideas after the finale. (Though, Damon-seduces-Stefan MUST exist somewhere.) Also there will probably be a bunch of new comment ficathons happening around then, if you're interested in dipping your toes.

[next_to_normal]

Not really. I've read a couple of yours because they show up on my flist, but I don't go looking for fic or anything. I am kind of intrigued but mostly lazy, lol.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Heh, well if you're interested, I can supply recs if you don't want to go looking for yourself!

[next_to_normal]

Haha, sure, why not? I have a bunch of Remix things I've been meaning to read, but more tabs are always fun! lol

apologies to Snick for the VD spam!

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

OK HAVE AT IT: (I haven't read all of these, jsyk, but I only read other people's recs so I'm assuming they're all good.)

Damon+Elena:
+ Cereal and Co.
+ An Unexpected Return. INSANE PLOTTINESS.

Stefan/Damon/Elena:
+ All The Same To Me. DAMON RUNS FOR OFFICE. YEAH THAT'S RIGHT.
+ Love Takes Hostages. LONG-FIC!
+ Across Unhallowed Ground. Another long-fic. DAMON IS A PRETENTIOUS WRITER. YOU KNOW IT.

Stefan+Caroline: The Adventures of Broody McBroodyson and Neurotic O'Insecurity

KATHERINE FIC! saved by old times.

DAMON FIC! The Great Pretender. WITH INCESTUOUS IMPLICATIONS!

Bonnie fic! A Spinning Carousel

Jenna fic! So Put Another Dime In the Jukebox, Baby

Also, everything stainofmylove has written. Ever. Here's all her TVD fic. softly_me and mollivanders also have good stuff. Check them out, yo.

Re: apologies to Snick for the VD spam!

[next_to_normal]

Woooo! Thanks! :)

DAMON RUNS FOR OFFICE. YEAH THAT'S RIGHT.

BRB READING THIS RIGHT NOW LOL.

Re: apologies to Snick for the VD spam!

[snickfic]

Vampire Diaries totally not being the first meaning of that acronym that came to mind...

Re: apologies to Snick for the VD spam!

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

LOLOL RIGHT? SUCH AN UNFORTUNATE ACRONYM.

[next_to_normal]

And this is where my biases come in, I think - just because a thing is realistic doesn't mean I want stories about it. Also, it seems to me that trainwreck relationships are easy but functional relationships are hard. Entropy, you know? So much harder to hurdle the obstacles and make the relationship work. I want to see that happen in my fiction, because I haven't figured it out myself yet.

I can understand this, and I think I kinda started out from this perspective? Back before I got all cynical and depressed, lol. I do still love certain functional couples - the Bartlets, the Taylors - but I notice they're generally parental couples. Which makes sense, because my parents have a pretty great relationship.

But with most characters, I have to be able to identify with them in some way in order to invest in them and their ship. And whether it's a relationship that shouldn't work but does, or whether it's a complete trainwreck, there has to be some level of fucked-upness for me to identify with, lol.

[snickfic]

Well, we are all some level of fucked-up, I think, so any realistic depiction of a relationship will show some of that. Every relationship has fracture lines. But certainly some fictional relationships have a whole lot more than others.

The Taylors? I'm drawing a blank on which show they would come from.

[next_to_normal]

Heh, that is true, but I definitely gravitate toward the more fucked-up end of the scale. :)

Eric and Tami Taylor from Friday Night Lights.

[vala3.livejournal.com]

Must say I like your reasoning especially about the Giles/Faith ship. Somehow after reading a few stories (very well done ones, too) tht I have become a huge fan of the pairing. And you do explain how they fit together in a logical manner. Also Wes/Illyria. If possible, could I get a link, I would love to read more of this pairing, and of course I can re-read your G/F fics anytime. Thanks.

[snickfic]

Faith/Giles is a pairing that caught me totally by surprise and then never went away. Alas, I've only written one drabble myself, but I've recced a number of G/F fics, which you can find under my tag for the pairing. You might also try the F/G tag at AO3.