Because y'all are my vampire peeps

[snick_backup]

I just finished Sunshine, by Robin McKinley. Has anyone read it? I find myself wanting to fannishly, lovingly analyze it to bits. With company.

ETA: spoilers in comments.

Comments

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

It's on my to read list. I've heard many wonderful things about it. I guess I should move it to the top of my list, huh?

[snickfic]

I found it very satisfying. The heroine is fabulous. She's quirky but not too quirky and has a really fun yet grounded voice. Also plenty flawed and human, which about makes up for her case of Speshul Snowflake Syndrome (which seems to be a particular quirk of McKinley's).

Comparing the vampire stuff with Buffy was interesting. Her vampires are much more alien than the Buffyverse vamps - much nearer to actual monsters.

I'd say, definitely worth a read. I generally avoid the urban fantasy genre and vampires are not actually a thing of mine, but yeah, I liked this quite a bit.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I have only just started it, and fanfic keeps getting in the way...

[snickfic]

Heh. But you know, I spent so much time comparing its vampire treatment to the Buffyverse vampire treatment, and also to that of various fic writers, that sometimes it did feel sort of like reading fanfic.

How long has it been since you just started it? Is this remarkable serendipity, us reading it at the same time, or has the bookmark been in the same place for a couple of months now? *g*

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I've had the book in a pile by the bed for about a year, ever since the SFX "Vampires" issue said it was by far the best of the semi-current crop of vampire fic (i.e. roads better than the Twi-stuff). I only recently tucked it into my bag for reading while waiting in line or in the car to pick up kid and whatnot. I thankfully do not do a lot of waiting around, though, so I'm not getting very far that way. I will have to step it up!

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

It's been on my Teetering Pile forever... keeps getting bumped down by the latest shiny new book. Sounds like now might be a good time to bump it back up.

[snickfic]

I support this notion. It really is very shiny, honest. Also a bit like watching Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, except I find myself craving baked goods instead of chocolate.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

IT IS ONLY MY FAVORITE VAMPIRE BOOK OF ALL TIME


...I MADE CINNAMON ROLLS FROM SCRATCH FOR THE FRIEND WHO LENT IT TO ME THE NIGHT AFTER I FINISHED THE BOOK

[snickfic]

HurRAH!

Okay. So. First: I love that this is not about vampire sex. I love that Sunshine is totally aware of the concept of fantastical vampire sex, and there's this teaser here and there, and yet at the end her relationship with Con is all about a deep friendship.

Plus, it's that "unlikely allies/friends" thing, which I have such a kink for.

Your turn.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

I love that this book does not romanticize vampires. They're pretty ugly and nasty, and even if they have fantastical sex appeal, the reality is... harsh. Meanwhile, we get the image of Rae as someone who is grounded in the day, and work, and family, and tactile, physical things. It's very earth (Rae) vs. air (Constantine). A lovely balance.

I also totally agree about the sex thing. The UST? makes it hotter.

[snickfic]

It's very tactile. I hadn't thought of that, but yes. All the senses, really - you're right, I have a strong lingering sense of baking smells after reading it. And the taste of old rotten vampire blood after one has just exploded on me. And the taste of old algae-green water one might get while looking in a vampire's eyes (although that might just be me).

I love just how individual an individual Rae is. Writing-wise, it's book strongest point, I think. The book talks about the shadows lying still on people who are most themselves, but even as she goes through all her identity crises Rae is always very much herself.

I thought the whole bad-gene part-blood vs. magic handler question was one thing too many. Most all the other world-building worked for me, but that just felt muddled.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the part-blood issue. It was confusing and could have been left out without difficulty (maybe some hereditary magic handlers just go nuts and that's a reason for concern?). Otherwise, the storytelling was just so tight.

The supporting characters were also wonderful - Charlie, Rae's Mom, Yolande, the coffee house regulars, the SOFs...I always find any story that's focused closely on just a few characters benefits hugely from having a vibrant secondary cast on the background. Like Rae, they really kept the book grounded.

The coffee shop! Death of Marat! I had such a vivid picture of the coffee shop and Old Town in my head. Overall, I found that I was able to slip into the world of the book almost seamlessly - it was difficult to stop reading once I started. ;) (You're totally right about the senses, that's what does it.)

[snickfic]

Otherwise, the storytelling was just so tight.

Yes. And yet there's no skimping - she has no trouble (unlike me *g*) in going on about the action scenes for pages and pages, where it's warranted. She also spends a lot of time on internal reflection, which most of the time works fine, too, although there were spots where it was theoretically in the middle of a scene and I wondered if Pat or whoever was staring at her, waiting for her to come from her thoughts.

Sometimes I just had to sit back and laugh at the meandering, though. Rae has a penchant for rabbit trails, and a lot of them seem to be there for the pure joy of it. It make me think of Neal Stephenson, especially Cryptonomicon, which is a 900-page exercise of Stephenson geeking out about all his favorite topics.

You're so right about the supporting cast. I hadn't thought of that contrast of vibrant supporting cast vs. story focused on two people, but yeah, it kept Rae and Con from getting lost in each other (unlike, say, Twilight, of which I'm fond of saying that my favorite character in the first book was Bella's truck).

About the worldbuilding: I did wonder how, if vampires are so extremely effective, they hadn't already overrun the human race. That seemed a bit convenient.

I loved the slang and curse words. Oftentimes these are ghastly, but hers worked for me. "Carthiginian," especially. Also "flash" and "spartan" and "Shiva wept."

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

Oh, the slang and curse words! How could I forget! (To be fair: I've read the book at least five times, but the last was in March and my copy's currently in storage. *SOB*) Overally, I felt the worldbuilding was pretty strong - but I'm not one of those people for whom worldbuilding is a strong suit, so - perspective there.

(Not to distract us from LOVELY SUNSHINE AND VAMPIRES AND BAKED GOODS, but the supporting cast thing is part of the extensive revisions I'm doing on my current fic. It's strange how that makes everything better, especially fic which is otherwise shippy.)

(NEAL STEPHENSON. Love Cryptonomicon to death, could not get past midway through the Baroque trilogy. I own all three, but have been stalled for the same number of years. Alas. He is great but even better when forced to edit things down a bit.)

I agree, the action scenes are very well done. I also like all the scenes we got of Rae on her own (mostly), exploring her own magic, that she does have her own magic. I think that's why she's my favorite human heroine in a book about vampires, because she has been given this wholly separate life and identity. Although I love Buffy with my whole heart, this is a problem with the show's worldbuilding - Buffy as the Slayer is always going to be dragged toward darkness and towards death. She needs her friends with her to keep her grounded. I don't think Buffy is weak in any way, but the game, for her, is rigged. What a contrast it is, to see Rae stand in the sunshine on her own, and have that equal and separate power that is hers alone.

[snickfic]

( It's strange how that makes everything better, especially fic which is otherwise shippy.

Maybe that's one of the reasons so much mediocre shippy fic is, in fact, mediocre. When the only fully-realized characters are the two halves of your romantic couple, it makes it feel like the romance is occurring in a vacuum, which just feels unhealthy and unappealing.)

(I decided that I did not possibly know enough history to appreciate what Stephenson was trying to do with the Baroque trilogy, and there were too many other books in my life for to try and wade through those.)

I also like all the scenes we got of Rae on her own (mostly), exploring her own magic, that she does have her own magic.

Yes. Very much so. Agree with you about Buffy - even when she's not being actively dragged down, she is pretty much defined by what she fights. There were would be no Slayer were there not evil to slay.

Aesthetically, too, the sunshine/dark contrast was very pleasing. I liked how McKinley pointed out that people with water affinity were so much better at putting out fires than those with fire affinity, and the best at walking across deserts. In fact, I think the irony of the book's title was a lot of what got me to pick it up in the first place. (Yay, marketing. *g*)

The urban fantasy books (of which this is one, I suppose, although it feels as though McKinley hadn't really been steeped in the genre as a whole, which makes sense given her background) focus so much on the dark, romanticizing it even when they're not explicitly trying to make it appealing. The dark side is edgy, wild. It's what Buffy goes to Spike looking for in S6.

Rae, on the other hand, is terrified of and frequently nauseated by it all. She wants nothing to do with it, even when it turns out she can do something about it. Evil is not sexy, after all, and when one has spent all night heroining one doesn't have the strength to take advantage of one's vampire ally when he offers. Being a hero is not any fun at all.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

okay now I am sleepy, lol, but some general talking points:

When the only fully-realized characters are the two halves of your romantic couple, it makes it feel like the romance is occurring in a vacuum, which just feels unhealthy and unappealing.)
Absolutely. The best/most interesting shippy fics that I've read are ones in which the main characters have other relationships and ties beyond each other. (A corollary: secondary character bashing is also a one-way trip down the Bad Writing hole.)

Evil is not sexy, after all, and when one has spent all night heroining one doesn't have the strength to take advantage of one's vampire ally when he offers. Being a hero is not any fun at all.
This is why I love this book so much. At the end of the day, it's the warmth of goodness and life, and home and sunshine and cinnamon rolls, which is able to fuel Rae's evil-fighting with Con. Her vampire bond with Con arises from her struggle to live - his blood is the only thing which can rid her of the poison.

[snickfic]

Yes. Yes. Especially agreed about warmth and home and cinnamon rolls. I suspect that this is at the heart of what McKinley was trying to do: write a 'vampire novel' about a character strong and grounded in livings things.

Can I just say again how much I love how her and Con's friendship turns out? Those last three pages are just pitch-perfect. He admits to actually liking her company, and now they're going off together to just do the Con equivalent of 'hanging out.' After everything else, all they've gone through, it's sweet in the best way.

I'm reminded of something someone said about FFL - maybe on the audio commentary? - that the whole episode is a struggle between sex and death and the question is, which one will win. And then we get to the end, to the porch scene, and blow the whole sex-and-death dichotomy out of the water with a third option. The end of Sunshine is a little like that, to me, although Rae and Con's dynamic is not Spike and Buffy's dynamic, and so their third option looks different. But as someone who disbelieves that sex and death are the only options, ending on that third option is extremely satisfying.

[snickfic]

Gah, my comments keep getting longer. Thank you for indulging me. :)

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

Oh, happily! I'm having fun! I have to take a break now because I have a story to beta (someone from Sherlock fandom, quality TBD...), but I shall return to reply at length when I am done!

[snickfic]

Yay. I may be in bed by then, but I will happily get back to you tomorrow. :)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

WORD TO ALL OF THIS. AND THE NEED TO BAKE AFTER READING. AND FOOD CRAVINGS DURING READING. No, seriously I gained a couple pounds because I kept on craving bread while reading.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

LOVE IT.

But now I am going to bed because I am tired, so we'll talk about it later. I just finished The Hunger Games (about two minutes ago) and enjoyed it quite a lot. And I keep meaning to make a "books I've read recently" post!

Anyways! We'll talk later!

[snickfic]

Yay! I can't wait to squee with you.

I had never heard of The Hunger Games until this last book came out, and then suddenly everyone was talking about Collins. "Dystopian future with TV" is not usually my shtick, but I think I might have to try it just to see what all the fuss is about.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

What I hear is that it's basically Battle Royale, except a book. While I enjoyed Battle Royale, I have no desire to read three books of it, especially as I unfortunately have also seen Battle Royale II.

[snickfic]

I, on the other hand, have never even heard of Battle Royale.

I confess, the idea of televised life-or-death games sounds awfully bland to me. But people whose opinions I value are enthusing about it, so.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine that reading about televised life-or-death games would be more interesting than watching them. Eh. Thus far, everyone I know who has seen Battle Royale (which I do recommend, but spoil yourself ahead of time because IIRC there are things for which you'll want to be warned) has thought the books were a boring, toned-down version.

But, each to their own.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Back!

I really love the details of the world in Sunshine. All of the descriptions of the food (which I would think would get old, but don't at all!) and the charms her landlady has. I like that Con is strange and Other: he's very much not a human who just drinks blood. And I really like their private relationship and how much it means to them but it isn't really romantic. That's cool.

By the way, there's some quite good fic for it over in the Yuletide archive. I was impressed with one or two of them. You should check them out!

Well, I think The Hunger Games is quite a good book (can't wait to read the next two!), and there's lots of survivalist elements, which I know you love, so there's something to look forward to. And it really has a lot of interesting things to say about reality television, honestly, without actually talking about it, you know?

[snickfic]

And I really like their private relationship and how much it means to them but it isn't really romantic.

Yes! Yes yes yes. See my last reply to ladyofthelog for me going on and on about that, complete with FFL reference.

And I love Yolande! She is that calming presence that I feel high drama books like this really need. She helps ground things.

I had a feeling it might attract the Yuletide crowd. Strong female character + vampire FTW! I'm almost tempted to request it myself this year. (I used to have trouble coming up with things to request, but I've had a list going this year since about February. I am just that excited about Yuletide.)

I confess, I'd rather forget reality television exists, for the most part, rather than read oblique things being said about it. I think part of my problem, though, may be that critiques of television as a medium tend to be one-dimensional, and mostly in the "downfall of society!" vein.

Anyway. I am planning to at least glance at it - it must be written fairly well, considering the folks I've seen recommend it (like yourself! *g*).

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely going to check out your conversation up-thread. It looks fun!

Yolande! That was her name! I like her lots and agree with you about keeping things grounded.

Also, you know how there are some things that just work for you and you can't explain why? I love the scenes where Rae just lays in the sun. My sister is always tanning--"laying out"--which I find riduclous, but during the winter, I'll lay in the sun as it streams through a window and just soak in the heat and warmth, and Rae's sun basking felt more like that than the "let's fry our skin!" kind. It just made me feel warm.

There isn't a ton of fic, but I remember at least one that felt like it could be an extension of the book, so there's that to look forward to. And it would be such a fun one to request! I always have a hard time narrowing down, but I can't wait for this next round!

I think part of my problem, though, may be that critiques of television as a medium tend to be one-dimensional, and mostly in the "downfall of society!" vein.

This is definitely more thoughtful than that (although it does have that element) and also draws on the Romans and gladiators and the coliseum, too. I think the thing that was most interesting to me is what it has to say about reality show "relationships." I'm being vague and I know that sounds weird but...if you read it, you'll see!

I basically read the entire thing yesterday, so it's very readable. It shouldn't take you long, so it won't feel like you're wasting your time. ;D

[snickfic]

Feel free to drop in on the discussion anyplace you like. :)

I know what you mean about the "lying in the sun scenes." I'm opposed to skin cancer, myself, but I doubt Rae has to worry about that. *g* Her basking felt very healthful, as opposed to the "frying" kind.

I am so pleased Yuletide has snagged you.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

As much as I love True Blood, when I found out they were making a television series out of the Sookie Stackhouse novels and not Sunshine I RAGED. You have this fabulous alternate world that we're only given glimpses of as it applies to Rae's story, and the history of the Others Wars and the worldbuilding just BEGS to be fleshed out in a fabulous, HBO way. True Blood? Not too much worldbuilding necessary. Mostly you just need nekkid people. I was also excited to see a vampire novel where the love triange isn't the center of the fucking universe, and there's no classic broody guy/snarky guy dichotomy to be found because vampires? Really icky, and Mel? Pretty chill. Romance and sexuality aren't big factors, so the book spends all that time on fabulous WORLDBUILDING and filling that world with supporting characters that fit in fabulously.

Yesh. Love the worldbuilding and RAGED that Rae's world wouldn't be televised. I wish McKinley had made a series out of the book, mostly because such a fabulous world has tons of room for more stories. It's like Harry Potter ending at Sorcerer's Stone, where we'd be so bereft without everything we learn in the other six books about the wizarding world.

So yes. Ditto to Verity's FAVORITE VAMP NOVEL EVAR!! Comment.

[snickfic]

I feel as though perhaps a NERVE has been struck here... *g*

It seems pointful to point out that nekkid people are, in fact much easier to come by than either worldbuilding or imagination. Cheaper too, probably.

I was also excited to see a vampire novel where the love triange isn't the center of the fucking universe, and there's no classic broody guy/snarky guy dichotomy to be found because vampires? Really icky, and Mel? Pretty chill.

Total agreement. (It occurs to me that Mel reminds me just a wee bit of Oz...)

And yes, even though this is a book very much about the aftermath of that initial kidnapping (when so many stories - especially horror novels - would only be about the kidnapping), it still feels like there's so much more story after the end. So Rae and her vampire are friends now - really, assuredly friends for good, in such a way that they care about each other and enjoy one another's company. So... what happens next?!?

[silverusagi]

I've read it!!

And word to what you said above about it not being all about the vampire sex. It seems like so many vampire novels now are basically romance novels in disguise, with either lots of sex, or lots of hot guys falling all over themselves for the heroine.

[ghostyouknow27.livejournal.com]

It's been a long, long since I read it, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's my favorite of the McKinley novels I read.

I really enjoyed how physically unappealing the vampire was. I recall his skin was like mushrooms?

I read once that she's considering a sequel/another book in the same universe. I hope it happens, because there was a lot left to explore.

[silverusagi]

She was considering a sequel, but she's not anymore. The last time it was mentioned on her page, she basically said there would be no sequel.

[ghostyouknow27.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Also, that blows!

[snickfic]

Or, even more common, the heroine falling all over the hot guy, and trying to disguise it.

Yes. UGH to the entire romance genre and everything it taints!

[louise39.livejournal.com]

Read this book last year and loved it. The baker is nicknamed Sunshine - works in a coffeehouse in a post 'Voodoo Wars' world - and that is only one part of the whole universe!! Her kidnapping, which could have led into another horror cliche, changes tack when she meets an imprisoned vampire, decides to help him and learns about her magic.

This is only one of the reasons that I liked this book, the guarded optimism. Sunshine is cynical and feisty and funny. Her world is filled with desolation and darkness but she needs the sun and uses it to renew herself. The secondary characters are developed into people you can visualize - her mother, her boyfriend, the habitues of the coffeehouse and even her landlady.

[snickfic]

Yep yep yep. You're so right about the possibility of it turning into just another horror story. As I told someone up thread, often the kidnapping is the whole story. You have sexy wounds and sexy mental anguish and some Stockholm Syndrome, and then, voila, skeezy romance.

Or else you have the horror story, where the wounds and mental anguish are not sexy (although possibly kinky to certain segments of the audience, one suspects), and if she's very lucky the woman survives, a battered, near-broken bit of humanity.

Here, the kidnapping is just the first quarter of the book.