Spike/Buffy in S6

[snick_backup]

I guess this is part of that "big ol' S6 post" I promised. These are more observations than anything; maybe I'll have something more meaningful to say later.

- Spike spends a lot of S6 being an ass. On screen, he cares as much about getting Buffy as he does about Buffy herself.

- Buffy spends a lot of S6 being a bitch. She doesn't care about much of anything. In particular, she doesn't care that she's using and abusing a highly volatile vampire who is at the very least obsessed with her, whatever other feelings she is or isn't willing to grant him.

- All the Spikeian perceptiveness we love celebrating? Takes a walkabout in S6. He really thinks Buffy loves him, if only he can convince her of it. He hammers this line of reasoning over and over, from "Tabula Rasa" all the way through "Seeing Red," and he is disastrously wrong.

- Buffy has feelings for Spike in S6. She says so herself in the bathroom scene. I believe her. She also says they're not love, and I believe that, too. Just existing takes almost more energy than she has; she hasn't any to spare for loving someone whom she has previously viewed and who frequently is still quite unlovable.

- Spike and Buffy's sexual relationship is destructive. In S6, sex is not a fix-it or a cure-all. There's no healing cock here (even though Spike seems to think there is). As soon as they start having sex their quiet, intimate friendship from the beginning of the season is lost. There's no romance, either. She's severely depressed and he's an insecure outsider without even a soul, and between all those handicaps there just ain't a lot of hope.

- While the circumstances leading up to Spike getting his soul are unpleasant, and while I hate the results afterwards (although we'll see how I feel about this upcoming S7 rewatch), I love the fact that he goes and gets it. It's one of his defining moments as a character, IMO. Mightily muddled by all the chip-removal misdirects - Grr! - but still overwhelming and mind-boggling and all those other good adjectives.

So much for S6 Spuffy. Now that I've finally rewatched the season, I think I'm going to have a whole lot less patience with fic that tries to soften it or turn it into romance. I want fic that engages with the canon, not smooth it over into something the writer is comfortable with.

I may or may not feel up to responding to all comments on this one. Also, I'm leaving this unlocked because I'm a trusting sort, but if someone starts bashing or flaming or any other discourteous thing in my blog I will Shut. You. Down. (A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend.)

Comments

[next_to_normal]

Word. To pretty much all of those points. I tend to cut Buffy more slack on the being a bitch thing, what with all the dying and the depression and such. But it is rather amazing how fanon has whitewashed Spike in S6, isn't it? I lost patience with fics that soften it a long time ago, lol.

I love S6 Spuffy. I love how fucked up it is and all the complexities of their relationship. But I can't really say I like them, you know?

[snickfic]

Oh, I'm not saying there are extenuating circumstances for Buffy being a bitch. If anything, I felt way more sympathy for her on the rewatch than I did the first time through. Still, objectively: not the best person to have for a friend or a lover.

They... are not very likeable.

[next_to_normal]

If anything, I felt way more sympathy for her on the rewatch than I did the first time through.

Yeah, same here. I actually didn't like Buffy very much the first time through. And now I feel bad for thinking she was such a bitch and putting all the blame on her and none on Spike, so I feel the need to love her doubly. :)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I love S6 Spuffy. I love how fucked up it is and all the complexities of their relationship. But I can't really say I like them, you know?

Word.

Though about Buffy...I may not like her this season, but I have such profound compassion for her. It's the season that let me love her. She makes some really bad choices, but she does just keep caring on, and guh. She just guts me completely. I love her lots this season.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah. It took me a while to love her, but now that I do, she just breaks my heart.

[deird1]

Now that I've finally rewatched the season, I think I'm going to have a whole lot less patience with fic that tries to soften it or turn it into romance. I want fic that engages with the canon, not smooth it over into something the writer is comfortable with.


Hmm. *ponders fic*

I tend to have a slightly more romantic take on the season than you seem to - but, on the other hand, my Buffy/Spike fic is extremely canon-compliant and tries to match what I saw on-screen.

Would you count mine as "trying to turn it into romance", or not?

[snickfic]

my Buffy/Spike fic is extremely canon-compliant and tries to match what I saw on-screen.

As opposed to all your other fic, which is just crackiness and OOC-ness all over the place. Oh, wait. *g*

I can actually only think of two S6 Spuffy things by you: "So Much" (which, for the Buffy characterization, is one of my favorite things of yours ever) and the post-Grave one ("Not Thinking About It," maybe? not sure of the title) where everything reminds Buffy of things Spike said. I'm not sure how I feel about that one. I think I could see Buffy getting to that place emotionally by that point - she could look back on her time with Spike and maybe feel wistful. I dunno.

Oh, and there's "The Long Slow Slide into Wonderful Nothingness" (or something like that), which doesn't strike me as even a little bit romantic - I find it friendshippy at best, and very sad.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Hmm . . . my stance on S6 Spuffy is that, based on the evidence of what happened at the end of S5/beginning of S6, it was one direction to go. Some fics that smooth things over don't do it with blatant disregard for canon - they take it back to a point where it could have gone either way (maybe through Tabula Rasa? Before the sexin' starts, at least), and have the characters behave differently than they did in canon, or have different circumstances, but they remain in canon for all that had happened before. Yeah, my weakness is S6 re-writes that deal with the resurrection differently. I think they're valid and completely in-character when handled by a good writer - just different.

Loving the Re-watch With The Housemate, btw. And all the thinky thoughts that have arisen from it.

[snickfic]

I think this is likely one of those places where Writing Trumps (Almost) All. Because I can certainly see the potential in the beginning of S6, and I can see how someone might continue in that vein without the train wreck in the middle, particularly if it's done well. What I really can't stand are fics that take canon events in the middle of the season and try to pretty them up. Or, alternately, I hate fics that lay on the blame on one party (usually Buffy) and spend the whole time getting that party to apologize for their behavior and "fix" things with the other party. Because, like I said - mutual destructiveness, here.

Possibly my single biggest problem is that I've seen so much fic from this season that just does it so badly. I wonder if maybe the themes and events this season just require a surer, more experienced hand than the themes and events of most of the other seasons.

Me, too! I don't know how long it would have taken me to get around to a full-series rewatch, in order, without the housemate to motivate me.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I'm of the opinion that their "romance" started before she died, but it all got incredibly messed up with the depression, fighting, and sex. I understand that my opinion is not shared by all. ;-)

Spike was fooled into thinking that sex was his crumb, his "in", his sign. Fooled by himself, not by Buffy. It often happens that one person will think that sex means something more than is intended by the other person. It's incredibly volatile stuff. That said, I can't really convince myself that Buffy didn't love Spike. She certainly didn't love him in the healthy, selfless way that would have been good for her and him. But I think she loved him in the destructive, "I can trust you with the worst parts of myself" way. Sometimes even mostly good relationships go through a phase like that, in times of stress, illness, or tragedy. (I can see a whole thread beginning about what constitutes "real love".)

It's a really terrible way to start a relationship, but I suspect that Spike's experience with Dru made him more accepting than he should have been. So I don't think his perception was all that off, but his choices in how to handle the mixed messages was very, very off. Like it had been for years, really. He thought he'd "won". He was wrong.

[deird1]

*loves this comment*

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Think I'm pretty much with you, and will admit to romanticizing S6, to a degree. I think in S6 she could have loved him, and maybe she did, but she was in denial about it - she couldn't admit to herself that she loved him, because that would mean a hefty change to her worldview - a demon without a soul has the ability to love, and what's more, she loves him back? Put something like that on top of her depression, the resurrection issues, and her discontent with her friends, and it's no wonder she'd shove those feelings as far away as she could. That's why I see it as a very queer relationship - everything is in the closet - she's not just in denial of her physical actions, but her feelings towards Spike as well. Very, very queer.

And, like I said, I heart S6 rewrite fic.

[snickfic]

I'd be quite willing to view "I know I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man" and so on as nascent romance. But it seems to me that, at best, that romance gets shelved after the beginning of S6.

But I think she loved him in the destructive, "I can trust you with the worst parts of myself" way.

While I'll grant that that's something, I'm not convinced it's love in any other than a grasping, "I need you" sense. Trust, yes. Also, judging from scenes in "Hell's Bell's," "Entropy," and other places, there does seem to have developed some genuine affection on Buffy's part. But 'love' seems an awfully strong word for it.

Yeah, I can see that thread, too. :p

However, I fully agree with everything you're saying about Spike and his perception of things.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Word. I don't usually refer to them in S6 as "Spuffy" because that term is for them as a romantic couple. I don't see them at all romantically in S6. Well, obviously, Spike is desperately in love with Buffy, but Buffy's far too depressed to love anyone. Calling it a romance is a misnomer. It's much darker and more complicated than that.

Which is why I kinda love it. Especially knowing that I get to have the S7 bona-fide Spuffy afterward. :)

[snickfic]

Word to your word. I don't have much to add to that. *g*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on pretty much everything here, but this especially sticks out to me:

Just existing takes almost more energy than she has; she hasn't any to spare for loving someone whom she has previously viewed and who frequently is still quite unlovable.


Absolutely. I think if they'd continued on the way they had pre-sex, that quiet, intimate friendship (which I would argue we got back to in S7!), they eventually could have built something. It would have taken a while, but they could have gotten there (which they did in S7!).

Also! I know we've talked about how so often in fic Buffy and Spike just dive into a sexual relationship like that's the end, everything's fixed now that they're having sex! And we both don't like it: we'd love to read something where Buffy decides sex isn't enough, etc. I actually think that S6 is the antidote to those kinds of fics we're talking about, because it shows that just jumping into it doesn't work and that it has consequences. Big ones. I love that they go there.

[snickfic]

You S7 people, you. *rolls eyes*

But hey, were it not for the housemate, who knows when I'd have gotten around to that S7 rewatch! As it is, we've acquired the first four eps and will probably get to them sometime next weekend. Beneath You! Oh, I cannot wait.

I actually think that S6 is the antidote to those kinds of fics we're talking about, because it shows that just jumping into it doesn't work and that it has consequences.

Which is the reason I'm starting to get mad at fics that miss that point. I'm not opposed to fics that pull occasional crumbs of affection and friendship and trust out of the mess; just ones that want to ignore the mess entirely and get back to the sweet lovin' porn, already.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Great post, and I agree with you right down the line. One thing I love about season 6 is how nuanced it is about how they got to the fall. It's a compelling failure on both their parts, and tragic when set against the real friendship thing they had going their at the start.

Not sure what else to say. Their story is so compelling, but for the most part you have to twist it into something else to get romantic Spuffy. And while those fics can be fun, they always lose the gripping drama of season 6.

[snickfic]

It's a compelling failure on both their parts, and tragic when set against the real friendship thing they had going their at the start.

Yeah. I think that tragic aspect is part of what triggers so many season rewrites - there are so many "If only..." places to point to.

And I'd also agree that romantic S6 Spuffy tends almost always to be less dramatic than what we actually got, although I actually find that true for many other longfics as well. I think a lot of writers, including me, have trouble putting their characters through as much pain as in canon.

[adorkablefae.livejournal.com]

I can't stand Spuffy. Mostly for the reasons you mentioned. Plus, I think Buffy is about the worst part of the show.

I know that a lot of people don't agree with me, but my love for Spike is eternal and she hurt him way too much for me to forgive her. I love crazy-drusilla-love!spike, loves-bitch!spike, all the way up to abused!spike and crazy-soul!spike.

In any case, I'm not a fan of their relationship.

[snickfic]

I think I like Spuffy for two completely separate reasons: I like canon Spuffy because it's complex and interesting (however unpleasant), and I like Spuffy in theory because I do see a lot of potential in the ship that canon didn't really explore. But then, I'm growing ever fonder of Buffy-the-character as I continue rewatching the show and thinking about her, so I'd say you and I are probably at an impasse there. :)

Regardless, Spuffy has a very particular flavor to it that isn't to everyone's taste. The friend who poked me gently into watching Buffy in the first place is a hardcore Giles/Buffy fan (with secondary Giles/other people pairings) and can't for the life of her see why I'm so interested in Spike. I get that - sometimes I get a hankering for another flavor of relationship, too. That's when I wander off and read bizarre things like Dawn/Ethan and Xander/Illyria.

[rahirah]

All the B/A creebing in the world couldn't put me off Spuffy, but S6/7 and the meta thereof often make me wonder why I ship them. In retrospect, I really should have given up at "Smashed" and gone off to write Teletubbies slash, or something...

[snickfic]

I'm sorry! I'd hate to stomp on your muse.

(After reading lots of Barbverse bits and pieces, as well as A Raising in the Sun, I'm finally reading Necessary Evils. It is yummy and crunchy and wonderfully long. I'm just at the part where Spike's chip's been taken out and he doesn't know it yet, and I'm thinking back to his earlier thought about how nice it to know that the chip'd keep him from doing anything unforgiveable. Eep! Drama everywhere. And I love your Willow characterization. So you can't stop now! Especially since regardless of how fabulous your Teletubbies slash was I'd still never read it.)

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Pretty much agreed, yeah.

Although, I would never consider canon Spike/Buffy as Spuffy (not saying that you said that--just saying it to be saying it). I'm not sure, or at least, don't recall fics that romanticize s6 midway--those fics usually involved Spike ending up with someone else or alone. But the Spuffy potential was there, which is why I am a Spuffy (though I do "ditto" Barb completely).

OTOH, I think some of my strongest one shots were born from canon friendly FitB from s6, so there is that.

[snickfic]

I think I'd need to know how you mean Spike/Buffy and Spuffy before I'd know whether or not I agree with you. But yes, as someone who likes the idea of them together, S6 is awfully hard to watch.