Burning question

[snick_backup]

Buffy and Riley first have sex in "The I in Team." The scene of Riley undressing Buffy as she kisses him is interwoven with the chronologically prior scene of Buffy, Riley, and the Initiative boys battling the Polgara demon, all overlaid with a bizarre but atmospheric electronic (I think?) soundtrack.

Why?

What is the interweaving of the fighting and the sex supposed to accomplish? It's clearly not the violence<=>sex tie of Spike/Buffy; are we supposed to take away that fighting side-by-side is a major component of the Buffy/Riley relationship, at least at the beginning? Granted, there is that conversation about fry cooks in "Doomed," but their similar, ah, professions aren't what initially attract them to each other nor what they're clinging to by the end. So if not that... what? Was Joss just feeling a bit experimental (read: random) that day?

(Also: the housemate asked if there was a lot of fic about Maggie Walsh. I had to tell her no. However, this is a great time to rec again Marina Frants's excellent A Hazy Shade of Winter, pre-series Maggie/Riley, which is both the longest and the richest Maggie Walsh fic I've ever come across.)

Comments

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

I think at that point the writers were beginning again to explore the idea that sex and violence are intertwined for Slayers in general, as they are for Faith. But Riley was supposed to be Buffy's "official" normal boyfriend, and as such he just didn't match with Buffy's arc at the time. It's a case of two non-meshing plotlines.

Hmm. At some point I wrote a ficlet about Maggie Walsh implying that she was an uncalled Potential.

[snickfic]

It's a case of two non-meshing plotlines.

I'd be willing to buy that. The same justification accounts for so many other unfortunate things about S4, after all...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

You know, I usually think that I'm pretty familiar with all things Buffy, but I'm constantly reminded that there are things I just don't remember at all. Like this scene. There are episodes from S4 that I've almost worn out my DVDs rewatching...but that episode is not one of them.

Also, Buffy and Riley having sex has got to be one of the most not-interesting scenes in the series for me. Yawn.

[snickfic]

I gotta be honest, although I recall quite liking the Riley/Initiative double-header ("The I in Team" and "Goodbye Iowa") on the first watch or two, they've not worn well with time. (Despite Spike coming to the Scoobies for help, again, and him sprawled across Giles' table and dead drunk while Willow ionizes everyone a bad hair day, and despite the great image of Buffy in her orange halter sitting amongst all that military green, annoying Maggie Walsh with her questions. They do have their good points...)

Actually, I mostly don't watch the Buffy/Riley sex scenes anymore because they work for me a little too well - the good ones, I mean, not the stuff in Where the Wild Things Are. But I think we've established I'm strange Spuffyite, so...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh! Both brilliant moments! Especially adorable Buffy asking questions! *loves her so much*

I guess it's just that I don't buy their chemistry in any other circumstances--i.e. when they're supposed to be "flirting" it just seems awkward to me, especially because every scene SMG has with JM turns into flirting--and when they finally do have sex scenes, they seem to grow out of their larger, more general interactions. And even with DB, Buffy and Angel's angst love was always convincing if--to me--often annoying. But I just don't buy Buffy/Riley. Although, admittedly, it's been ages since I watched any real Buffy/Riley scenes.

[snickfic]

You know, I have to start wondering if maybe I'm just blind to chemistry. People talk about TV/movie couples that do or don't have great chemistry, and I can't see it. Granted, Buffy and Riley don't spend every minute looking like they want to jump each other's bones, but that'd seem to be a little wearing anyway. Although my time in fandom has convinced me that they really couldn't have worked out long-term, I actually think they're really cute in S4.

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

Some people are just like that about chemistry. Me, for one. I never see chemistry.

[snickfic]

I am not alone. Yay. :)

[next_to_normal]

Actually, I mostly don't watch the Buffy/Riley sex scenes anymore because they work for me a little too well

...Huh.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I always thought Riley fighting side by side with Buffy is what turned her on. Reminder of Angel? A necessary addition for a slayer? Both? It's not a simple sex = violence thing. More just that Buffy needs someone who can meet her where she lives. Slaying makes her hungry and horny.

[snickfic]

I guess that makes sense. As Eowyn notes below, it just works a lot better thematically with Buffy/Spike than Buffy/Riley.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I think it works to set up Buffy/Spike. Buffy gets off on fighting!Riley. But Riley's only that way because he's tanked up on Maggie's drugs. Buffy thinks she wants to do the normal. That's what Riley is all about. But the only time she gets jazzed is when he's not doing the normal. He can't sustain it because he is normal. And so she goes off into the woods with Spike.

[snickfic]

So, would you say Buffy is just incapable of carrying on a relationship with a 'normal' guy? I've always been a bit skeptical of that idea; it's such a sweeping statement.

(Now the contrarian in me wants to write a fic with Buffy in a healthy, permanent relationship with a 'normal' guy. Except I'm not actually interested in writing it, I'm just feeling contrary. *g*)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

So far Buffy doesn't seem to be capable of carrying on a healthy relationship with any guy! She's cookie dough.

For most of the series her project is learning how to accept her calling. I think she and Riley were doomed because Buffy was trying to be 'normal' in reaction to the Faith fiasco and because Angel left her so she could be 'normal'. She then swerves in the other direction with soulless Spike -- a project that was equally doomed because that didn't do justice to the part of her that is normal.

She seemed to be doing better with Spike in season 7 -- but that was in the middle of a major war, and she managed to avoid romantic issues for the most part. Season 8 gives us a Buffy who still doesn't do well in the connection department, though I can't say I really understand where she's supposed to be at.

[snickfic]

For most of the series her project is learning how to accept her calling. I think she and Riley were doomed because Buffy was trying to be 'normal' in reaction to the Faith fiasco

It had never crossed my mind that Faith was part of Buffy's motivation towards being 'normal.' Very interesting.

I'm curious: how much of the Riley/Buffy incompatibility and the futility of her bid for normalcy do you think was intentionally built in by the writers?

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I have major cognitive dissonance on that question! It reads to me as 100% deliberate. I mean, Buffy and Riley get together in an episode called Doomed! But then listen to Jane's commentary on Superstar and it's all about Riley as serious. I handle my dissonance by saying that Joss knew -- he just didn't tell the rest of the writing staff!

I love season 4. One of my dream projects would be a close read of the whole season showing just how well thought out everything but the main arc really was.

[snickfic]

One of my dream projects would be a close read of the whole season showing just how well thought out everything but the main arc really was.

I support this dream! I didn't care for S4 much at all when I first watched it, but I really like a lot of it now, and it doesn't seem to attract much meta. And who knows how much better the main arc would have been if they could have kept Lindsay Crouse for the whole season.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I love season 4. One of my dream projects would be a close read of the whole season showing just how well thought out everything but the main arc really was.

*wants this*

I think S4 works perfectly as a transitional season going from the high school years to the adult years. It works at something of the hinge-point, laying to rest old stories (Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz) and starting new ones by building on that foundation (Most notably through Restless). The main plot arc is lackluster, but the rest of the season is spot-on as far as what it was meant to do.

[next_to_normal]

I just figured it was an extension of Faith's "hungry and horny" thing. Riley is supposed to seem like the perfect partner for Buffy because they can fight demons together and then have sex afterward (which, incidentally, was something she and Angel could never do). Granted, it's not what first attracted them to each other, but I think it's supposed to prove that they're even more right for each other than we thought.

I agree that it's pretty weak. I think it works better if you haven't seen S6, when they did the same thing (with much more impressive results) with Spike. *g*

ETA: Maggie types faster than me. :(

[dragonpaws.livejournal.com]

Icon love!

[next_to_normal]

Thanks! That's by indulging_breck and is snaggable.

[snickfic]

I think it works better if you haven't seen S6, when they did the same thing (with much more impressive results) with Spike. *g*

You know, I think this might be the ky. In my head that's what I've been comparing it to. But you're right; before S6 (or even S5 and FFL), this would have made much more sense. Thematically, it just works a whole lot better for Spike and Buffy's dynamic (not to mention the particular form it takes in S6) than for Buffy and Riley's.

You are smart.

[next_to_normal]

You should ask your housemate what she thinks they were trying to do! Get an untainted opinion. :)

[snickfic]

I think we agreed on joint mystification today. But I will try prodding her a little more.

(Soon I get to show her the Faith episodes! And then Superstar, with the fun credits! And then Restless, and then Fool for Love!!!! I am loving inducting a newbie into Buffydom.)

[next_to_normal]

LOL, the sad thing about having all my friends gang up on me to make me watch Buffy is that now there's no one left for me to induct. :( I need new friends.

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

You can always pester me to get DVDs.

[next_to_normal]

Eh, it's not the same. The fun is in watching someone discover it for the first time.

[dragonpaws.livejournal.com]

I feel driven to note that the phrase "burning question" in the context of sex made me giggle, but I'm blaming it on the late hour and the beer I just finished. :)

Also weighing in, I agree that the juxtaposition of sex and violence was meant to represent the sexual appeal of violence to Slayers (but then, I read antennapedia, so I doubt my opinion is a surprise.

I generally found Buffy/Riley sex scenes to be severely off-putting, largely because I couldn't imagine how Buffy was having a good time. It just seemed like another tool for her to use to deny parts of her identity-- now she's sleeping with the "normal" boy in the "normal" way. Ew.

[snickfic]

Yay! I always love having you weigh in. (You realize that my entire fannish existence is just a little bit your fault, right?)

I generally found Buffy/Riley sex scenes to be severely off-putting, largely because I couldn't imagine how Buffy was having a good time.

Yes to Riley as a way for her to deny her identity. Nicely put. Yet in the moment, at least, she does appear to be enjoying herself.

(Also: how are you?)

[dragonpaws.livejournal.com]

I assume she's having fun because of the fellow-warrior vibe. ;)

I get a little warm glow whenever I see your fannish stuff-- sort of a "basking in reflected glory" thing. I'm happy to take a smidgen of the blame/credit. :)

Regarding me, I think my most recent journal entry sums of some of it pretty nicely. I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel of graduate school, potential oncoming train, etc. But I'm enjoying myself! Life is actually pretty darned good right now. Spring break is next week, too.

You know those periods in life where people ask you how you are and you can't really think of an answer because you're not really there, you're totally living and working for an unrealized future that holds all your attention so the only real answer is that you're waiting and in suspense? That's how I am right now.

How are you? How much longer is your stay in Honduras? Any more teaching adventures to relate? I've really enjoyed reading about your experiences developing curricula on the fly.

[deird1]

I think it's something to do with the "hungry and horny" thing, mainly.

(Plus, it looks kinda cool.)

[snickfic]

It is definitely a neat visual (and aural) effect. And yeah, I think you're right about the hungry/horny thing.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

nor what they're clinging to by the end.

Actually, the fact that Riley doesn't feel up to standing side-by-side with Buffy is a (imo) a huge part of why their relationship faltered. What you see is Riley and Buffy having sex interwoven with Buffy fighting alongside the Initiative. So perhaps it's about Buffy diving into Riley's world, initially to be welcome, but later betrayed and rejected. And later on, Riley tries to be a part of Buffy's world, but Buffy's worried about him being "all weak and kitteny" and puts him on the bench, hence his kamikaze attack in Fool For Love. I'd say the fact that they're both demon fighters is definitely something that drew them together faster. It's the difference between Riley and Owen. Owen got benched when he caught sight of the supernatural, Riley got to fight alongside Buffy and it spurred on their first lovemaking scene. It's because he was able to initially fit, but later on that connection became a bit fleeting and clearly not enough.

That's my take...

[snickfic]

It's because he was able to initially fit, but later on that connection became a bit fleeting and clearly not enough.

So... yes to fighting together as being an important part of their relationship, which is precisely why OoMM was the death knell?

I still think that Buffy would have been working on the relationship for quite a long time if Riley hadn't bailed. He's the one that felt insecure, so he's the one who got skittish and bolted. Ironic, that.

Although, considering the events of Into the Woods, it occurs to me to wonder just how egregious an issue would have to be before she'd have actually broken up with him (or any guy, maybe?).

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to add beyond what other people have said.

So I'll just say that I actually think it's a neat scene, even though Riley looks like a total doof while having sex (Seriously, he's got this, "Gee golly, I'm getting laid!" look on his face).

That's all.

[snickfic]

Yeah, I actually think it's a neat scene, too - neat enough that I wanted some deep thematic significance behind it. (The housemate opines that the writers realized they had two boring scenes, and intercut them to have one less boring scene. Which is funny, since she's not usually much of a cynic...)