Hah!

[snick_backup]

So, you remember back when I was rewatching "Surprise" and got all excited about the flowers vs. not-flowers thing in Buffy's dream? (Recap: Dru complains that the flowers on the garlands on her party chairs are "All wrong." They're removed. Later, Buffy dreams of the factory, and the flowers are, again, gone. Dru has foreseen/effected reality.) I couldn't see the point of it, other than a nebulous Buffy-Dru dream connection.

Tonight I figured it out.

No flowers = deflowering. Duh.

Still no cohesive theory on exactly what the Dru-Buffy connection is about, but I'm even more convinced now that there is one. 'Cuz Buffy keeps dreaming that Dru is a danger to Angel, and yet it's Buffy who finally causes his downfall, both now and in "Becoming." There's some kind of Dru-as-Buffy's-shadow-self thing going on.

One of these days, I am totally writing some big dense Dru-Buffy fic.

Comments

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Good catch on the deflowering thing! I'd love to read your Dru-Buffy fic. There could be some connection between Buffy and Dru -- but I think it could just be a way of representing them as parallels (and Buffy would have seen this too). Angel preyed on them both and took their innocence. The parallel is explicity established in Lie to Me... where Angel's story of what he did to Dru foreshadows the threat he poses to Buffy. The parallels continue with respect to Spike, who loved both passionately, but was arguably second fiddle to Angel with respect to both of them.

[snickfic]

I think it could just be a way of representing them as parallels.

Mebbe. I dunno. There seems to be a lot of echoes that wouldn't be necessary, it seems to me, if drawing a simple parallel were the only point. Like, in "Surprise" Dru tells Dalton to make a wish before she "blows the candles out" (ie, poking his eyes out), and then at the end of "Innocence," Joyce asks Buffy if she wants to make a wish on her cupcake candle. (There's also lots of stuff with Dru and eyes and sight in those two episodes, which I'm also not sure what to make of.)

I dunno. I'll see if anything else pops out at me this rewatch.

The parallels continue with respect to Spike

Very true. Fascinating how neatly that dovetails, considering how the writers clearly had no inkling of it when they introduced Spike/Dru.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Fascinating how neatly that dovetails, considering how the writers clearly had no inkling of it when they introduced Spike/Dru.

Someday I'm going to do an entire rewatch on the assumption that they *did* know what they were doing, but the truth is, I think, in between. As they sniffed out the way the story develops they made use of the planks they'd laid down, even if the planks were laid down without them knowing how they'd be used.

It is hard for me to believe, though, that they *didn't* know they were having Spike parallel Angel in a different key by the time we get the juxtaposition of Harsh Light of Day with In the Dark. (And once we get Spike parallel to Angel, the parallel between Dru and Buffy just gets stronger).

They never did much dramatically with it, though. The Dru-Buffy dynamic is a plank that hasn't really been cashed out, I don't think. Maybe it's too hard to figure out what to do with a character who is too insane to actually develop.

[snickfic]

As they sniffed out the way the story develops they made use of the planks they'd laid down

True. The Buffy writing team was always fabulous at making use of previously-woven threads.

Maybe it's too hard to figure out what to do with a character who is too insane to actually develop.

Possibly. One of the things I find both fascinating and frustrating about Dru is that she's basically the only static character in the 'verse. Between the insanity and the visions, she's stuck with an eternal if highly skewed and metaphorical perspective, which I think makes her almost immune to change or development.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

If I recall, as well, in the second dream Buffy has in Surprise, she and Drusilla are wearing the same white gown at some point. There's definitely a parallel between Dru and Buffy, their initial innocence, their respective trauma as a result of Angel/us. I'm very tired and am basically repeating what Maggie said.

I'd never noticed the flowers before (I thought it was just a cool Crazy Dru moment). That is awesome.

[snickfic]

If I recall, as well, in the second dream Buffy has in Surprise, she and Drusilla are wearing the same white gown at some point.

Ooh! Now I absolutely have to back and rewatch. I know which dream it'd have to be (Buffy's wearing her PJ's in the first one), and somehow I never noticed that before.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

It's very brief. But compare Buffy's dress here:

http://screencap-paradise.com/caps/albums/Series/Buffy/Buf_S2/Buf_213surprise/Suprise669.jpg

To Dru's dress here:

http://screencap-paradise.com/caps/albums/Series/Buffy/Buf_S2/Buf_213surprise/Suprise672.jpg

Same dress. :)

I think in the dreams, the important connection is that after Angel turns, Buffy feels she's killed him. So in pretty much all the worries about Dru killing Angel, Drusilla is actually standing in for Buffy, herself.

[snickfic]

So in pretty much all the worries about Dru killing Angel, Drusilla is actually standing in for Buffy, herself.

Exactly.

Also, it occurs to me that Dru is sort of the Ghost of Buffy Future: she's what happens to innocence when Angelus wins. She is the specter of what Buffy could become. From complete innocence to utter depravity - there's no longer fall than that, really. She's Buffy as worst case scenario.

Mebbe?

EDIT: Dress! Dress! You're so right. Now I really have to rewatch that scene...

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Ooooo! Yes! Totally!

The key point about the Angelus arc is that Buffy doesn't allow herself to be terrorized into victimhood. She fights back. Dru is the twisted mirror that shows what she might have become had she not done so.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Wait--I feel as if there's something more there...

Um...

<--is trying to make brain work.

Drusilla stands in for Buffy, and she "kills" Angel. When Angel loses his soul, it sends him right into Drusilla's arms. He's welcomed home--party time. They're at a party in that dream, and Angel loses his soul on the night of Dru's celebration (cause it wasn't for her birthday, right?).

Okay, I'm sure that didn't help at all...and yet I post. I can't seem to help myself.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

My brain is decidedly not working right now.

You point out an interesting linkage between Buffy's birthday and Dru's party.

...yeah, I got nothing. I'm grumbling at snick for making me think thinky thoughts when my brain is numb from finals.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Well, at least you have finals as an excuse for a numby brain :P

I think there may be a correlation between Dru's party being all, "Yay--I'm coming out!" and Buffy's (understandably ended up being) all stay in quietly.

<--thinks a rewatch may be in order.

[snickfic]

Oh yeah! I forget to mention their parties. I've seen fic that seems to think it's Dru's birthday, too, but that seems both too bizarre a coincidence and not to be supported by the text.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Could be total happenstance or...

We don't know the full story just yet of Drusilla and Angel, other than that he made her. Buffy sees Drusilla talking to Angel earlier in the season, in a white gown. They seem very friendly, and Angel tries to warn her to leave--for her safety (which kind of parallels with Angel trying to leave with that arm or whatever for Buffy's safety). Could be Buffy's muddled subconscious creeping into a vision.

Also--Angelus makes Drusilla lose her innocence.
Buffy's innocence contributes to the loss of Angel's soul. It's kind of an opposite end of the spectrum type of deal.

[snickfic]

I definitely think the white gown thing is significant. Especially since Dru wears white all through the season until "What's My Line," and then wears only red (I think) after that.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Dru also wears white, more importantly, in "Lie To Me," and...the image of Buffy's dream is the exact reversal of what actually occurs there--Dru, weak and dressed and white, helpless as Buffy holds a stake to her chest while Spike watches on. Or maybe that means nothing--I don't know.

Nards.

[snickfic]

.the image of Buffy's dream is the exact reversal of what actually occurs there

Ooh. That hadn't occurred to me. I do, however, think it's a real bummer that that one scene is the only direct, one-on-one Buffy-Dru interaction we ever get (until "Crush," maybe, if you count that). Unless I'm forgetting something?

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

No, you're right--those two gals never got to rassle it out. They have very limited screen time together, and most times, even when they are, they aren't interacting with one another. There's always a buffer in the form of Spike or Angel(us).

[rahirah]

Well, it's possible that some of that is because Dru was originally supposed to be much more important to the seasonal arc - Spike was supposed to die, and a revitalized Dru and Angelus would have teamed up against Buffy as the Big Bads, rather than Dru becoming the McGuffin that prompts Spike to switch sides.

Can't say I'm sorry the writers changed their minds...

[snickfic]

Dru was originally supposed to be much more important to the seasonal arc

Good point. I don't know very much about what the original plans were for the season's arc. It's high time I got around to listening to the S2 audio commentaries - I suppose the commentaries for "What's My Line" and "Becoming" would be the most likely to talk about that sort of thing.

Can't say I'm sorry the writers changed their minds...

Well, yes. :)

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting juxtaposition, although something inside me is wincing at the "deflowering" pun ;)

I would love to read something dense that delves into Dru's character. I've found very little fic that does that, tho granted it's hard to write a character piece about someone whose defining feature is "insane". But there's method to her madness, and she certainly took care of herself capably after she kicked out Spike.

Interesting that around the time we saw Buffy's growth into adulthood, Drusilla was out there learning to be independent for possibly the first time in her existence.

[snickfic]

I've found very little fic that does that, tho granted it's hard to write a character piece about someone whose defining feature is "insane"

Definitely. I think part of the reason I'm so interested in this possible Buffy-Dru thematic connection is because otherwise, Dru just doesn't have a lot of depth. She's fabulously creepy and Landau plays her to the hilt, but there's just not much there there. In fact, practically her sole purpose is as a plot device; whatever motivations she has are opaque at best and at the mercy of every passing whimsy.

Around the time we saw Buffy's growth into adulthood, Drusilla was out there learning to be independent for possibly the first time in her existence.

Indeed. Have you ever read hello_spikey's Drufic Crazy Madcap Redemption? It starts with Spike taking Dru in during Ats S5, and follows her battle for independence thereafter. Hello_spikey has a great ear for voices, including Dru's, and I definitely recommend the fic if you're interested in independent!Dru.

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

Dude! Thanks for that rec! I don't know why I haven't read that yet, since I've enjoyed hello_spikey's other work.

What I'd love to read is an account of souled-Drusilla and how she feels about God and her earlier Catholic faith. Would she mourn because her vampirism somehow separates her from her God, or would she blame Him for forsaking her when Angelus turned her in the convent?

[snickfic]

What I'd love to read is an account of souled-Drusilla and how she feels about God and her earlier Catholic faith.

Ooh! That would be fascinating. I've been pondering recently how I'd go about exploring faith in a Buffyverse context, but that angle hadn't occurred to me. I think I've only read one fic with soulled Dru, and that didn't touch on the faith question at all, I don't think. Hmm.

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

The best Buffyverse+faith fic I've read thus far is http://www.fanfiction.net/s/542540/1/Ingression

Do check it out!

[snickfic]

Believe it or not, I found that one when I first started looking for Buffyverse+faith stuff. I found a rec somewhere with a broken link, and then spent literally months tracking it down to ff.net.

It's very interesting stuff. I'm a little iffy on the Spike portrayal - I'd have liked more backstory to how he'd gotten to the point of asking God for help. It seems like it'd take some specific incident to get Spike, of all people, to church. Plus I'm not convinced the author's understanding of Catholic theology is terribly robust. (Which is fair enough; neither is mine.) But still, definitely not the sort of thing you run across every day in Buffy fandom, and it explores some very interesting questions.

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

I'm very much into Buffyverse + faith stuff (I even wrote a ficlet in that vein), especially in regards to Spike. If you know of any others, I'd appreciate a link!

[snickfic]

I know of two others that interact with traditional Christianity in any significant way. One is hello_spikey's fic Angel in Church, a gen Angel&Spike thing after Spike gets his soul. I recall being fairly iffy about the doctrine in it, but it's been quite a while since I read it.

And the other is lizmarcs' fic Contrite Spirits, which is gen post-series Faith&Xander, with lots of musings about faith. Again, it's been ages since I read it; I'm pretty fuzzy on the specifics of this one.

I suspect there's probably fic dealing with other faith traditions as well - I think su_herald linked to a Willow/Oz Hannakuh fic just the other day - but I haven't been collecting those.

(EDIT: sorry for all the edits. I seem to be having trouble tonight saying what I want to say the first time through.)

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

Thanks Snick! I'll read them.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

One of these days, I am totally writing some big dense Dru-Buffy fic.

See that you do. This is very good! I like the deflowering pun, myself, but there's something wrong with me. It's interesting that Spike was supposed to be Buffy's mirror image in School Hard, and now you're coming up with some plausible evidence that Dru is, as well. Buffy is living in a wacky funhouse, all right.

[snickfic]

I like the deflowering pun, myself, but there's something wrong with me

Well, I rather like it, too. I'm truly a sucker for wordplay, though.

It's interesting that Spike was supposed to be Buffy's mirror image in School Hard

Yanno, despite the matching bloodstreaks-on-cheek thing, I've never quite understood that argument. How, exactly, is he supposed to mirror her? Which of her qualities is he a twisted representation of?

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Oh! Oh! I think it's that both Buffy and Spike are iconoclasts. They both approach their "jobs" with a distinct lack of adherence to the "way it's always been done". They both bring that breath of fresh air to the hidebound traditions. With Spike, there's a "little more fun around here", and the same can be said of Buffy, though it sort of came out in "there's a manual?" They both enjoy tweaking their elders, but then who doesn't? I can come up with more bits, but that seems the most important, thematically. Alas, it's not deep with hidden meaning, like your Dru=Buffy dreamscape.

[snickfic]

Ah. Okay. I get that. I guess I hadn't quite caught it before because for Buffy, that's kind a long-running theme, but not so much in that particular episode.

Thank you!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

In this episode, they both attempt to play nice with authority at first, but end up chucking that for their usual modus operandi in the end. How's that?

[snickfic]

Fair enough. :)

(And: I adore that icon.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

DRU-BUFFY FIC??? It's because you love me, right? That's why you're thinking of writing such a thing!

I can only imagine how awesome such a fic as created by you would be! *is excited*

I love exploring Faith as Buffy's shadow-self, but the idea of Dru as hers as well? AWESOME.

I have nothing of value to add to this thread. I'm just flailing with fangirly joy over my love of both characters (and, by extension, Spike!)!

[snickfic]

DRU-BUFFY FIC??? It's because you love me, right? That's why you're thinking of writing such a thing!

Hee. Sure, why not. Of course that's why I'm thinking of it. *g*

My problem is that I have no of a decent plot or premise to explore the idea. I'm also not real clear on when to set it. It'd certainly need to be before Spike/Buffy, because all that baggage would obscure the Dru-Buffy stuff I'm interested in. And I'm really not even interested in any kind of Buffy-Dru-Angel triangle implications.

I guess I could do some kind of dream sequence thing, especially since I already have canonical evidence of Dru tapping into Buffy's Slayer dreams. Hmm.

(EDIT: By the by, did you read my Dru-fic Abandon Hope? I wrote it for the remix ficathon this summer, but honestly you could read it without reading the source story - I, uh, took rather a lot of creative license. And a whole lot of my Dru-thoughts have come from the prep work I did for that story.)