Dollhouse 2.1 "Vows"

[snick_backup]

First impressions:
Wow, did Amy Acker totally bring it this episode.

The explanation for why Topher made Whiskey the way he did was more satisfying than any of the suggestions I'd seen. Works for me. Of course, Acker and Kanz completely sold that scene in particular and all their respective lines the whole episode, which helps with the satisfaction.

"Well, that was charmless, wasn't it?"

"I like his suit."

"You may well be missing the point."

Yikes, just when I thought all the weird Ballard Echo-obsession stuff couldn't get any ickier, it did. Ew ew ew.

Why hello, Alexis Denisof. Please don't be boring. Right now, you rather look to be the obligatory plot device political crusader. Please don't.

I almost felt sort of bad for the poor arms dealer.

(Slightly) deeper thoughts:
So here's the thing. Whiskey has all this fabulous complexity going on with the nature of identity. She's a character, albeit a Topher-made one. She looks to be having an arc with actual, yanno, emotions and stuff. And whoa, I did not know Amy Acker could act until now.

OTOH, Echo is less a character than a symbol, even accounting for the fact that she has no stable personality (and what little that is consistent from ep to ep is one of more the boring heroine/activist/save-the-world personas I've ever seen). She's not a character; she's a theme, and it's a darn sight more difficult to tell stories about themes. And, quite frankly, Dushku doesn't have the chops to pull off what's being asked of her.

So why does Whedon keep pretending that Echo is the most important part of this show? Why?

Comments

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, good! I was hoping someone on my flist would do this so I didn't have to! (Though I'm planning on rewatching tomorrow, so who knows.)

Amy Acker was, indeed, fabulous, and finally made me understand why everyone in Whedon fandom is so crazy about her. I always thought she was fine, and I liked Illyria a lot, but she really did bring it this episode. And I finally think there's more to Topher than his whole deeply creepy amoral guy. Fascinating stuff. I really do need to watch again to pick up on everything.

Oh, yes, Ballard/Echo is soooo creepy! Gah! It amazes me how attractive I don't find Tahmoh Penikett on this show when I was all about him on BSG. Of course, on BSG, he was playing a good guy--noble and virtuous--who was a dedicated husband and father. Here he's playing a guy who's taken his wanting-to-be-a-white-knight issues so far it's unbelievable.

Yeah, Alexis' role could easily be boring. But then I think about what Joss did with, say, Lilah Morgan, and I feel slightly better. We'll see.

I almost felt sort of bad for the poor arms dealer. Haha! I know what you mean!

Oh, amen on your thinky thoughts. Aaaaa-men. I became so much more invested in Whiskey's search for her identity in one episode than anything having to do with Echo.

She's not a character; she's a theme, and it's a darn sight more difficult to tell stories about themes. This is so true.

So why does Whedon keep pretending that Echo is the most important part of this show? Why? And why is she still the only one in the opening credits? Why? There are so many fantastic actors in this ensemble *coughEnvercough* And even on Buffy and Angel--which were ostensibly about those characters--the ensembles really shone. Why won't he just let them?

[snickfic]

I was hoping someone on my flist would do this so I didn't have to!

If you're looking for more interesting meta, 2maggie2 and quinara both posted about the ep today, with much meatier reactions than mine.

Why won't he just let them?

I think he's still stuck on this Grand Story that he wants to tell. Usually he's really good at working with his assets and around his limitations, so maybe (hopefully) we'll start seeing some improvement this season.

After all, it wasn't until "School Hard" that I sat up and started taking notice of BtVS.

[clawofcat.livejournal.com]

Wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. I loved Eliza as Faith. I want her to be brilliant as Echo and she's just... not. I'd say she's the weakest actor on the show and it disappoints me to no end. I don't care about her or Caroline. I especially don't care about Ballard. What a tool. I just don't get the appeal. Why does he even have this fucked up obsession? There's something seriously wrong with him (as, I suspect, there is with everyone on that show). DeWitt stroking Victor's face? Creeeeepy...

The Saunders/Whiskey scenes absolutely stole the show. Last season I was waiting for Joss to give Amy something to do. And it didn't happen. Until, Alpha blows in and we get the big reveal about Whiskey. Well. Alrighty then - sweet! Her scene with Topher was not only really well acted, but beautifully shot. Her direction, her body language, it added to what was playing out between them. It's too bad she won't be sticking around the whole season. She's a character that has meat, that you want to know more about. The whole "I want to do die" thing? Heavy. The unreality of her life struck me as very similar to Dawn's identity crisis, which, honestly, is better explored in fic than it was on the show. There was also something very Illyria/Fred in the performance - that disconnect of selfhood and body, soul vs. vessel. I really liked the themes they were playing with.

In general, the show is one big meta. Hard to relate to the characters, but interesting in what issues they try to thematically tackle.

I was also like, "Yay! Alexis!" but than nothing happened. Total fanservice, don't you think?

Also, hands for who else thought that slashy Echo/Whiskey scene was guh-worthy, in a homicidal, I-want-to-cut your face way? I can't help it. I was totally seeing a (vapid) Faith/Illyria scene when that played out. Moar pleeze!

[snickfic]

Why does he even have this fucked up obsession?

Because we want to demonstrate how totally screwy and icky it is that a guy might want to rescue a girl. Ever. White knights are actually agents of the patriarchy, didn't you know? /sarcasm

DeWitt stroking Victor's face? Creeeeepy...

I figured that was just harking back to 'Roger' in "Spy in the House of Love." Adelle's had a thing for Roger/Victor for quite a while now, so it didn't occur to me that that was, yanno, any creepier than usual.

Hard to relate to the characters, but interesting in what issues they try to thematically tackle.

Yeah. Easy show to have opinions about, hard show to love.

Yes to the identity crisis, the excellent acting, the Dawn comparisons. (I forget sometimes what an underutilized character Dawn was in canon, because she's so much fun in fic.)

I was also like, "Yay! Alexis!" but than nothing happened. Total fanservice, don't you think?

Well, maybe the casting was fanservice, but I had the impression that what we saw was the introduction of a new arc - the Threat from Outside, since Ballard's crossed over now. I expect to see more of Denisof. (Of course, knowing casting spoilers would be helpful here...)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

She's not a character; she's a theme, and it's a darn sight more difficult to tell stories about themes.

Great way of putting the problem... though I'd add that it's not obvious what theme she's supposed to be. I never have thoughts when Echo is on the screen except maybe "there's a kernel that makes us what we are and Echo's kernel is special and good" and that's not exactly an opener for a lot of rumination. Compare Whiskey who was not only personally compelling, but also the walking embodiment of a whole bunch of themes and thoughts that ricochet around in my brain and in the layered dialogue like crazy.

And when I put it like that, it makes me think that Joss has something up his sleeve. How could the writer who gave us Whiskey think he's writing any kind of interesting anything for his main character?

[snickfic]

My idea of Echo as a theme runs something like, "Even when your personality is completely wiped away, your activist passion for poor little defenseless animals will overcome the evil technologists. Good for you."

If he did have something up his sleeve, you'd rather think he'd have at least hinted at it when he was sure he was getting canceled, either at the end of the season as a hook or in Epitaph One as a last look at the show he'd wanted to make. Even if your name is Joss Whedon, "Pretend your main character is boring for an entire season before revealing that she's really not" isn't much of a storytelling strategy.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

The scenes with Amy Acker gave me creeps. She was fantastic.

why does Whedon keep pretending that Echo is the most important part of this show?

Apparently, Eliza hired him. She had a contract with Fox to make a show starring her and she invited Joss as a showrunner.

[snickfic]

Apparently, Eliza hired him. She had a contract with Fox to make a show starring her and she invited Joss as a showrunner.

Er, this is sarcasm, right? Because such a theory would explain things rather too well.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

*sighs* They both try to sweeten the pill, but...

http://uk.tv.ign.com/articles/876/876932p1.html

[snickfic]

Hrm. Yeah, it's tough to tell just how much they're not saying. But it would explain an awful lot...

*sighs with you*

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

(Hullo. Friended you to stay on top of Seraph. Then read this post and had to chime in. I hope you don't mind.)

As much as I'm thrilled with the show, I'd rather watch "Claire Saunders' Identity Crisis, with a side of pre-Apocalypse" than "The Echo and Ballard Show".

Paul Ballard is especially troubling since he started out almost as an audience identification character (What is the Dollhouse? Let's follow the underdog FBI agent and find out!) and then became increasingly obsessive without any real acknowledgment that his behavior is creepy.

I'd much rather watch the characters who are obvious in their creepiness - DeWitt authorizing Victor's scar treatment because of her lingering affection for the Roger imprint; Topher unable to comfort Claire because of his glee in her "complete" personality; Boyd's moral disapproval of the company he continues to draw his paycheck from. There's a smorgasbord of interesting characters. So why is Echo the special one?

[snickfic]

(Hullo. Friended you to stay on top of Seraph. Then read this post and had to chime in. I hope you don't mind.)

Yay, new reader! Feel free to comment on anything you like; the more, the merrier. :)

without any real acknowledgment that his behavior is creepy.

What sort of acknowledgment were you thinking of? I mean, folks in the Dollhouse have been psychoanalyzing him for months, talking about how obsessed he is. In this ep, Adelle was taunting him with the fact that he didn't really care about Mellie, but "still had a use for" Echo. And I can't read anything Ballard's done in the past few eps as being anything but intentionally sick and creepy: beating Echo up this ep, watching her via security tapes on her 'wedding night'.

Regardless of creepiness, though, if I'm going to watch creepy I'd much rather watch Claire/Whiskey than Ballard. 'Cuz Claire is fascinating and at this point Ballard is just icky.

So why is Echo the special one?.

Yeah. I got nothing.

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

What sort of acknowledgment were you thinking of? I mean, folks in the Dollhouse have been psychoanalyzing him for months, talking about how obsessed he is. In this ep, Adelle was taunting him with the fact that he didn't really care about Mellie, but "still had a use for" Echo. And I can't read anything Ballard's done in the past few eps as being anything but intentionally sick and creepy: beating Echo up this ep, watching her via security tapes on her 'wedding night'.

Those are all valid points, and they convinced me that Ballard was missing a few nuts. But I already think stalking = bad. It seems like much of the world thinks stalking is a charming and convincing way to prove your devotion to someone, going by the success of Twilight and several comedies.

The Dollhouse's criticism of him lacks moral weight because of their own activities, and could easily be read as annoyance toward something that's complicating their work.

I think the part that really bothers me is that Ballard's watching the security tapes and later attack on Echo is immediately "rewarded" by a soft-focus bonding ceremony (a symbolic marriage, given the theme of the episode) in which Echo says she trusts him. There aren't any consequences to what Ballard's done, no acknowledgment other than the awkward apology that didn't receive a response.

My hope is that this will be addressed in later episodes, but I'm worried that it won't.


In other news, I need a Dollhouse icon.

[snickfic]

I totally agree with you RE: stalking, Twilight, Ballard creepiness, etc. However...

I think the part that really bothers me is that Ballard's watching the security tapes and later attack on Echo is immediately "rewarded" by a soft-focus bonding ceremony (a symbolic marriage, given the theme of the episode) in which Echo says she trusts him.

I agree that he's being 'rewarded' with something that further feeds his obsession. However, I think that the writers know exactly how creepy he is, and are setting him up for big awful consequences down the road. In every episode he is digging/being dragged even deeper into a moral darkness that I rather doubt he'll be able to get out of - and I think that's the point.

I think one of two things is going to happen: he's going to become an unrepentant monster who's completely incapable of seeing how far he's fallen (and I don't think he's there yet, because he seems at the moment to still realize how he's compromised his moral stand); or, he's going to turn at the last moment and realize just what a monster he's become, and totally despair.

Either way, I don't think that the writers are going to let him just get away with all the ickiness that he's involving himself in. They're going to make a point with him somehow.

So I guess for me, it boils down to this: I don't think the writers or the show in any way approve of Ballard. I actually think they're setting him up to be a worse monster than anyone in the Dollhouse.

All just IMO, of course. :) But the stuff above is why, although Ballard himself is quite icky, I don't find the way the show is handling him icky, at least not yet.

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

I think you've convinced me that the writers know what they're doing :)

Now I'm really curious to see how far they let Ballard go before they make him say "Oh fudge".

[snickfic]

Yay. In this instance, at least, I think the faith is justified. :)

Oh, I think they're going to push Ballard as far as ever they can.

[next_to_normal]

You know, in some ways, this reminds of me of the situation with Season 8 - where it's not clear whether we're supposed to take these actions at face value and assume the writers are condoning them, or if it's meant to disturb us and there's going to be an acknowledgment of the hero's fall later on that vindicates all the creepy feelings.

Except I'm much more confident that you're right about this than I am about Season 8's resolution.

[snickfic]

In Ballard's case, I've just seen too many specific instances of what I have to read as deliberately written creepiness and/or deconstruction. Like the ep "Briar Rose," which was all about how the princess doesn't need a white knight. Or in this last ep with Ballard and the Echo wedding night security footage: there were, it looked to me, deliberate visual parallels between what they were doing and what he was doing. I have trouble believing the Joss folks, in particular, could write that without realizing exactly what they were writing.

As for S8... yes. I am, shall, we say, much less sanguine about the intelligence of the ultimate arc in S8. *g*

[quinara]

You know, in some ways, this reminds of me of the situation with Season 8 - where it's not clear whether we're supposed to take these actions at face value and assume the writers are condoning them, or if it's meant to disturb us and there's going to be an acknowledgment of the hero's fall later on that vindicates all the creepy feelings.

I would say, like snickfic, that Dollhouse has been pretty clear in its commentary on Ballard's story so far. Back in Man on the Street there was an explicit discussion of Ballard's fantasy regarding Caroline, followed pretty soon after by his dream at the beginning of Needs where he can't seem to work out if Caroline's a sex-object or a corpse. That dream also gives us his assertion that he's 'not a client', despite the fact that's what he then becomes. He resists getting sucked further into the Dollhouse, stipulating that he doesn't work for them in Omega, until of course in Vows when he agrees to. He's clearly doing things he never wanted to do and always believed to be 'bad'.

[quinara]

I will likely be eventually Jossed to hell, but I feel like the emphasis on Echo as something special reflects Echo's view of herself - she thinks she's special and unique (little bit like Alpha there and Joss has said she's got a little bit of Alpha in her, if less of the cutting up women parts) and, really, the Dollhouse is letting her play out that fantasy possibly as much as anybody else's. DeWitt still wants to see where she's going; they could have easily shut her down months ago, but instead everything's a little too easy for her.

[snickfic]

I would be so pleased if that turned out to be the case. I've gone from being apathetic about the character to actively disliking her, and I really want to watch her get shot down.

All this fury, and yet I liked pretty much everything else about the episode. You know, everything that wasn't the main plot.

*grumble grumble*

[quinara]

We can only live and hope! And hey, in the end she ends up working with Alpha - I'll be amazed if she gets there without doing something dodgy.

[snickfic]

She does? Is this a casting spoiler kind of thing? Or do we know this from Epitaph One?

[quinara]

I can't remember the line exactly, but I'm sure it's at least implied that Alpha's the one who's running Safe Haven and the technology that keeps people safe there.

[snickfic]

Huh.

I guess if I'm going to keep having these conversations, then a rewatch is in order. :)

[quinara]

Rewatches are always in order! (And with Dollhouse, we're still at the stage where they don't take months... ;))

[snickfic]

Hee! Very true. *g*

[next_to_normal]

I'm pretty sure the line was something about the technology, "thanks to Alpha." It didn't seem clear to me whether Alpha was now working with them, or if they'd just managed to get their hands on something he built (perhaps repurposing it for their needs) without necessarily his cooperation.

[quinara]

*tracks down line* Caroline says "The tech they need doesn't travel. ... No one's been printed there. We have Alpha to thank for that."

I took that to mean Alpha was still running the technology (and keeping the there safe), but I suppose I could be mistaken.

[next_to_normal]

I'd love that to be the case. My only doubt is that in Epitaph One, she's still playing the hero - she's the one who not only leads the Actives to the compound in the memories, but she's also the one who leads the future group to Safe Haven. She's still being made special by being the only one who knows the super-secret location of this place, and still the activist leader who rescues the poor defenseless animals people.

At that point, with the Dollhouse in shambles and DeWitt at Echo's mercy, it's hard to see how they're still letting her play out a fantasy.

[quinara]

Well, Epitaph One is in ten years time, so it hardly surprises me that any Echo 'project' has blown up in DeWitt's face. And I don't think there's anything to say that, as time goes on, we will always be supposed to read Epitaph One in the same way. To me there are already queries to be had about it - where on earth are they going when they climb upwards out of Adelle's office? Why does Echo's mission to get everyone they're original selves back not matter when she needs a body (ie. why does she leave an imprint in order to take them there, rather than just give them the information)? Why does she treat the Dollhouse like a lab she needs to break into, when the people inside have set up defences quite well (and seem happy to be working with DeWitt etc.)? Maybe it won't ever be questioned, but I think Joss sees Felicia Day's character as the hero in that episode, rather than Echo/Caroline, so I feel like it could do.

[Sorry for my HTML fail!]

[next_to_normal]

Maybe it won't ever be questioned, but I think Joss sees Felicia Day's character as the hero in that episode, rather than Echo/Caroline

Hmm, I didn't get that sense, but it's also possible that I'm watching it through the lens of Special!Echo that we've been getting drilled into us all season. It might look different if I rewatch Epitaph One further down the line (perhaps after the reveal, if your prediction is true).

I also (and this is me wearing my cynical hat) think that sometimes the types of questions you raise are just examples of Joss' tendency to put character/emotion above logic. Why do they go upwards out of Adelle's office? Well, because UP is a much more positive image than DOWN. Why does Echo leave an imprint rather than just a note on the fridge with directions? Because that would be too easy and there'd be no reason for cool flashbacks to tell the audience how we got here. With Joss, I think "Hey, that would be cool" sometimes trumps "But it doesn't make any sense."

[quinara]

With Joss, I think "Hey, that would be cool" sometimes trumps "But it doesn't make any sense."

Well, yeah, but that doesn't stop those moments happening. Joss!fail might explain how they end up in the script, but it doesn't give an answer to what they mean when they sit being odd next to everything else that happens. (If they needed to go UP they could have just as easily come out of the sewer grate into some oddly hopeful sunshine; that memory board could have been anywhere.) I don't think it's right to class as Meaningful certain aspects of what's going on and class other aspects as unimportant.

It might look different if I rewatch Epitaph One further down the line (perhaps after the reveal, if your prediction is true).

Well, I don't there's going to be any great 'reveal' as such, more that her moral high-ground/specialness will be increasingly questioned (like almost everyone and especially Ballard last season) - eg. I won't be surprised if DeWitt gets some inkling of what she's trying to do (and lets Echo believe she's still being super-sneaky). We've already had the moment with Claire, where Echo was apparently blissfully unaware of Alpha cutting up Whiskey's face for her benefit (and then compounds that with her self-centred question of "Am I [No. 1]?"). I mean, I don't expect Summer Glau to walk up to her and cry j'accuse! or anything. :D

[next_to_normal]

Joss!fail might explain how they end up in the script, but it doesn't give an answer to what they mean when they sit being odd next to everything else that happens.

Well, to carry over from a completely different discussion, what we see can mean whatever you want it to mean, regardless of authorial intent. :) But for me, in trying to guess how (or if) something will factor into the story in the future, I find it's most helpful to look at what the author seems to think is important, because that's what he or she is most likely to come back to.

I mean, I don't expect Summer Glau to walk up to her and cry j'accuse! or anything. :D

But that would be fun! :) No, really, "reveal" was probably the wrong word for it, but again - I'm looking at what the creator thinks is important. Right now, the priority seems to be making it clear that Echo is a special snowflake, so that's how I view Epitaph One. That doesn't mean there isn't room for other interpretations, or that I won't change my mind about the episode based on later portrayals of Echo.

[quinara]

Well, to carry over from a completely different discussion, what we see can mean whatever you want it to mean, regardless of authorial intent. :)

If you're talking about the discussion on 2maggie2's journal I should probably mention I had a bit of a ramble there about being guided to some readings more naturally than others - events, in my view, don't happen in a vacuum. But, otherwise, I suppose I would say that I don't think it's possible to guess what the author might have totally disregarded until everything is said and done (because there's always the opportunity to retcon!).

All the same, I think I might be arguing slightly at cross-purposes, because I'm not trying to say that I think the show isn't presenting Echo as a special snowflake, rather that the show is actively indulging her with something of the intent (maybe) to annoy us and make us question Echo's story. Because it's also, I would say, sneaking in hints that Echo might be quite arrogant and self-centred - which could easily lead her to a place where she's (no longer?) a paragon of shiny virtue. Basically, I'm not assuming (yet) that the writers aren't aware of the annoying side to their main character - that Echo-Whiskey scene especially doesn't come off to me as only allotting sympathy to Echo. But, of course, it could easily go in another direction, in which case I'll happily take my lumps. :)

[next_to_normal]

All the same, I think I might be arguing slightly at cross-purposes, because I'm not trying to say that I think the show isn't presenting Echo as a special snowflake, rather that the show is actively indulging her with something of the intent (maybe) to annoy us and make us question Echo's story.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I think I'm just not at the place yet where I can see the subversive text as intentional rather than the writers being sloppy. Maybe it's because it's an open canon we're trying to analyze, or maybe I just give Joss a lot less credit than I used to. Either way, I tend to take things we're shown at face value until I have more of a reason not to.

[next_to_normal]

So why does Whedon keep pretending that Echo is the most important part of this show? Why?

Two reasons. One, what moscow_watcher said about the contract. Eliza is a producer, and it was HER contract that got this show on the air in the first place. He can't get rid of her, or demote her from the lead role in favor of the other characters, even if he might want to.

And two, Joss gets these "infatuations" with certain actors/characters that seem to blind him to good storytelling. The same exact thing happened with Fred on Angel - we were practically beaten over the head with how wonderful and special Fred was, without ever really being shown that she was special. Most of the time, she was a trying-too-hard-to-be-cute damsel in distress. She certainly had the potential to be awesome (um, check out Amy Acker. Girl can act, when she's given good material) but Joss seemed to take it for granted that everyone would love her as much as he did at first sight, and he didn't need to actually do any work to develop her character to be awesome.

I see the same thing happening with Echo. We know she's special, because we've been told over and over and over by every single character that she's special. But she doesn't really do anything to distinguish herself as worth watching. We just have to take it for granted that she's special because everyone says she is.

[snickfic]

Yes to the infatuations. The only reason I didn't find Fred as irritating as Echo is because she was secondary - I just didn't have to pay as much attention to her.

And now that I have seen Acker with good material, I'm that much more offended by the specialness/lameness of Fred. My gosh, how that show could have benefitted from another really strong, vibrant, interesting female character, especially one backed by Acker's acting chops.

[next_to_normal]

Agreed. That's why I am sort of split on my opinion of Illyria. There are things that bother me about the character, but ultimately, she was a much greater challenge for Amy to play than Fred, which made her way more interesting.

[snickfic]

Absolutely. I list Illyria as one of my favorite Ats characters, the only one of which not to appear in S2, and yet she was only in, what, six or eight episodes? Then again, I have a thing for highly analytical outsider characters, so that probably accounts for a lot of why I like her. :)