a general question and a SPN canon question

[snick_backup]

First: I've reached a point on this blog where it seems reasonable to refer to events from the first five seasons or so of SPN without spoiler cuts. I say "reasonable" because almost half my flist is SPN people now, I think, and I have the impression that all my other people who might have wanted to see SPN have done so by now. (Excepting gryfndor_godess and bruttimabuoni - don't worry, everything post-S5 will still behind a cut.)

Before I do so, though, is there anyone else who'd rather I kept putting all SPN spoilers behind cuts? People who might conceivably want to watch the show in the future and remain unspoiled until then?

So, the canon question: do we think Ruby had any idea what Lucifer's plans for Sam were post-S4? After all, we didn't find out about the vessel plan until, what, 5.03?

Original entry posted at Dreamwidth. Feel free to reply here or there. ( DW replies)

Comments

[scarletscarlet.livejournal.com]

I reckon you can go either way on that; I don't think there's anything to confirm.

The last thing Ruby says to Sam is:
Because... because it had to be you, Sammy. It always had to be you. You saved us. You set him free. And he's gonna be
grateful. He's gonna repay you in ways that you can't even imagine.

It's ambiguous there.

If she knows... for Ruby the zealot, being burned up in a possession by Lucifer could be seen as a desirable outcome, so she might genuinely believe it's a reward. Or, she's a demon; maybe she's lying, and just trying to persuade Sam it'll be okay so he'll be open to Lucifer's requests.

If she doesn't know, she may believe Lucifer would be, if not a benevolent god, then at least one willing to reward good behaviour, and that she and Sam are both in for good things. Or even just trying to save herself, given that Sam just tried to zap her with the same powers he used up killing Lilith.

Then there's also the question of whether Ruby has come to care about Sam or not. I know what I like to believe, and most of the time it's that Ruby does care about Sam in some way and didn't have the full story re possession. But there's a certain appealing horror in the idea that she might care about him but be willing to see him burned up for the cause anyway :).

[snickfic]

Yeah, I don't know. The fact that she was so excited in that last scene, that she was trying to convince Sam of how great things were going to be, suggests to me that a) she really did care about Sam, and b) she thought his priorities were crap, but possibly open to improvement. :D

Whether Ruby thinks being burned up in a possession is an outcome to be desired, I don't know. It's really frustrating that we get so little of her reasoning; we only see real genuine Ruby in that one scene, and she doesn't get much time. So I don't know if she's the kind of Lucifer-fanatic who thinks burning out for his glory would be the best thing ever, or whether she's fundamentally interested in her advancement and sees Lucifer as the primo opportunity. Although, she seemed to be fairly devoted to Lilith, and she worked really hard to get Sam to the point of killing Lilith, which suggests that Ruby's okay with death as a person's final reward.

[grasshopr-molly.livejournal.com]

Well, we know from what we see on screen that Lucifer taking him as a vessel didn't actually burn Sam out; that may have been because Lucifer allowed him to stay, but it wasn't auto-fatal regardless. We have no idea whether Ruby was aware of that or not, but if she was she might have thought that getting to serve as Lucifer's vessel would be the coolest thing ever. I can see her picturing herself as Lucifer's consort, with Sam being allowed out occasionally to "visit".

I am of the opinion that Ruby really cared about Sam--maybe not originally, but certainly by, say, halfway through S4. She just cared about letting Lucifer out more.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

I have s7 now. I haven't opened it; rewatching s6. But thanks for taking care.

I'm still so damn confused by Ruby and what she knew that I have no answer to your question.

[snickfic]

I'm with you. I mean, it helps me a lot if I pretend Ruby 1.0 and Ruby 2.0 are just different people (and I have several possible fanwanks that would allow for that), but even restricted to just S4, it's not always clear what Ruby's trying to accomplish, and based on what information.

[cappy712.livejournal.com]

From the way Ruby answered Sam and the way Lucifer talked to Sam - as well as the way Lilithe knew that she was not going to see the plan fulfilled - I personally think that Ruby knew Sam was the vessel. I think that she was upping the demon blood to fortify Sam as the vessel.

I also believe that if Dean had not shown up Sam might have been swayed by Ruby and Lucifer to say yes. It would have been interesting if the book version with out Dean and Castiels interference would have shown up for them to read.

My question is how was Nick a vessel enough to fill in?

[snickfic]

I think that she was upping the demon blood to fortify Sam as the vessel.

Mm, that's a thought I hadn't had before! I like that idea.

Re: Nick, he clearly wasn't enough of a vessel to fill-in long-term; he was disintegrating by the end of S5 (and also maybe Lucifer couldn't use all his powers yet, while still in Nick? I mean, we don't see him using many angel powers during S5).

[janice-lester.livejournal.com]

My question is how was Nick a vessel enough to fill in?

That's a really good question. My initial reaction was to say, it's a bloodline, he must be a distant relative. But then I remembered the Campbells, who aren't terribly distant relatives at all, so wouldn't they have been better?

[grasshopr-molly.livejournal.com]

But none of the Campbells had a brother who was from the bloodline of Michael's vessels. Or, possibly, vessel-dom isn't an on-off switch, and Nick happened to have more of it than any of the living Campbells (it seems unlikely Lucifer could have retrieved Samuel or Deanna's soul from Heaven).

This is why I generally think of S6 as fanfic. :)

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

I think it's a nature/nurture thing? It mattered that the long-term vessel was in the Lucifer bloodline, and also that he have a personal connection with a suitable candidate in Michael's bloodline. So Nick wasn't any different on that front from the Campbells.

So it came down to the practical issues. He was looking for a vessel ASAP before Michael could have him stuffed back in the hole. IIRC, Lucifer was raised in Maryland and Nick lived in Delaware. Finding Nick would be a lot easier than going halfway across the continent to locate (and possibly raise from the dead) a Campbell just for the sake of finding a Campbell.

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

do we think Ruby had any idea what Lucifer's plans for Sam were post-S4? After all, we didn't find out about the vessel plan until, what, 5.03?

hm, torn. I'm having a tough time picturing Lucifer letting any of his lackeys in on the intricacies of the vessel thing. He probably had to tell Azazel something to have the Special Children identified properly, and since demons know how possession and vessel-ing works, the inner circle might have put two and two together. I don't think Ruby was letting herself think the plan through by the end there, though, since she'd bonded with Sam and wanted so badly to believe that things would be okay for them.

[snickfic]

I don't think Ruby was letting herself think the plan through by the end there, though, since she'd bonded with Sam and wanted so badly to believe that things would be okay for them.

*nod* Agreed.

[jacyevans.livejournal.com]

My head canon? I think she had her suspiscions. But Lilith didn't seem like she would let her in on anything but what she needed to know. She probably knew that Sam would be key in releasing Lucifer, that both of them were instrumental in breaking the seals, and that it "had to be him" because of the demon blood and Azazel, but not what the end game was. She seemed genuinely surprised when Sam told her Cas and the angels were the ones behind getting Dean out of hell. I don't think she would have reacted that way if she knew why.

[snickfic]

True - I don't think she had any real idea of the Lucifer vs. Michael showdown endgame, or that angels were involved at all. That's an excellent point.