some random thoughts re: the last disk of S4

[snick_backup]

One serious question and several "how did I forget?" moments.

First, serious question: when Ruby tells Sam in 4.22 that it wasn't about the blood, "You never needed the feather to fly, Dumbo," are we meant to take that literally? As in, the help the demon blood gave Sam was strictly a placebo effect? This makes a lot of sense given what Ava was able to do in 2.22, presumably without any demon blood at all.

OTOH, obviously the blood had some effect, beneficial or not; it's clear in 4.21 that Sam really is detoxing from something. (And what even was that, with him getting thrown around the walls of the panic room? That was dumb and made no sense to me.) What's more, he needs it to help him withstand Lucifer in 5.22.

Basically: I dun't get it. Help.

In shallower things:
* How did I forget Colin Ford was in 4.21? He was one of Sam's hallucinations! And he and Jared interacted! And it was glorious! Now I just want that time travel episode even more.

* Ha ha, you guys! In the gag reel, Jared totally makes fun of Brock Kelly's "hero" line. I should probably be annoyed at this, because Jared is the big star picking on the guest actor, but Brock Kelly as Dean is right up there with adult Lilith in my least favorite casting choices on this show. So, I am mostly just amused.

* Gah, this bald guy is absolutely the worst incarnation of Azazel on this show. JDM, Mitch Pileggi, and the S2 guy (whom fandom calls Stan? even though the actor is Fredric Lehne? IDGI) all rocked the character and managed to maintain a fair bit of character continuity, and the salesman guy in 4.03 was bland, but he wasn't bad. This guy in 4.22 is bad. I remember when I watched the ep the first time, I assumed he was an entirely new character until he flashed the yellow eyes at the end; he has none of the tics developed by the other actors. Argh.

In other news, pretty new icons! \o/ (If I were a Dean/Cas shipper, this absolutely would be my Dean/Cas icon, always and forever.)

Original entry posted at Dreamwidth. Feel free to reply here or there. ( DW replies)

Comments

[silverusagi]

The 4.22 YED guy was just not into the character or something.

I think the dumbo line was meant like the blood was influencing Sam. Like Sam means "what did you make me do" and Ruby is like "honey, nothing". Obviously Sam gets addicted to the blood, but the blood didn't set him on his righteous path. The blood didn't MAKE him go after Lilith, Ruby didn't make him go after Lilith, that was all Sam, and it always has been.

[reapertownusa.livejournal.com]

As far as what Ruby said, I just thought that was Ruby being manipulative - trying to convince Sam that this was something that was always in him and if he has that power he should use it, it couldn't possibly be wrong...sort of thing.

And for the detox I thought that was just Sam throwing himself around the room as a physical reaction to the delusions he was having, but I like to pretend that episode and everything Sam did in Season 4 doesn't exist so I've only seen that episode a few times (as opposed to the fifty plus times I've probably seen quite a few of the others ;)).

I think Brock Kelly did great for what he could do with it. There's just no way anyone could come in and do what Jensen has done with that character. It's not even fair.

So agree on Azazel though, who is a favorite demon of mine in the other mentioned hosts. The rest all did a fabulous job with that character. I just pretend that last fellow was a different demon since the Azazel character wasn't pulled into it at all.

Ooh, congrats on the new icons! Very pretty indeed!

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

As in, the help the demon blood gave Sam was strictly a placebo effect? This makes a lot of sense given what Ava was able to do in 2.22, presumably without any demon blood at all.

I always wondered about that too! Maybe Ava was just that much more awesome.

Though even in context of the big Bond villain speech, I still take Ruby as kind of an unreliable narrator. I think she had really convinced herself that she was pushing Sam forward to his greatness, and so the idea of him not really ~needing it suits her admittedly twisted reasoning. a la "I gave you the CHOICE!" which requires an exceptionally flexible definition of the word "choice." And/or there's always the question of how much she actually knew about how it all worked.

OTOH, obviously the blood had some effect, beneficial or not; it's clear in 4.21 that Sam really is detoxing from something. (And what even was that, with him getting thrown around the walls of the panic room? That was dumb and made no sense to me.) What's more, he needs it to help him withstand Lucifer in 5.22.

I guess the placebo thing could still work with that? If the plan was to get him acclimated to drinking demon blood to prepare him for Lucifer, then convincing him his mental power was dependent on that would be as good a way as any to get him hooked.

heh. I liked jerk priest Azazel though that admittedly might be more about ~reasons than the actor. The difference to me feels more about situational roles than anything. Every other time we see Azazel, it's through Winchester POV - he's the mastermind, he's in control, he's this looming presence with immense psychological power. In the scene in the church, he's a supplicant making an offering; if anything, the (third person omniscient) POV is Lucifer's. And to him, Azazel is a flunky. And wow I didn't think I could love this episode ANY MORE, but that scene does some fantastic stuff.

[jacyevans.livejournal.com]

I have a ~thing for powers!Sam, so I always took that line to mean exactly what she said - he always had the power inside of him, and if he really put his mind to it, he could use it, but she needed him to rely on her blood and, thusly, on her.

That isn't to say that demon blood doesn't give him a jump, especially considering he had to drink gallons of it just to let Lucifer in and not crumble under his power, but I feel like that was manipulation, too - like, drinking all of it will also make him less human, in a way, and thus more likely to say yes.

(Of course, these could all be the delusions of a fan who so desperately wanted to see Sam using his powers on his own in S5 and did not receive that wish. If wishes were horses, etc, etc.)

[snickfic]

I see what you mean about Sam's choices. Although, flying=powers and blood=feather seems like a much clearer and more straightforward analogy than flying=choices.

[snickfic]

Ruby is a demon of very complex motivations. Those you suggest could definitely be in the mix.

I think I would not have been so monumentally disappointed with Brock Kelly as Dean if I didn't have Colin Ford's Sam performance to compare him to. Ford's, what, ten years younger than Kelly? (A problem in itself, in terms of casting.) And he nailed young!Sam.

And I don't dislike all the Deans. I mean, Ridge Canipe wasn't brilliant, but I didn't mind him. Something about Kelly's performance just really rubbed me the wrong way.

That Azazel performance was just very unfortunate. Up to that point, part of what I'd appreciated about him was how good a job (almost) every actor had done in playing him as the same character.

Wow, your rewatch record leaves mine in the dust. I think there are a few eps - Faith, Hell House, Lazarus Rising - that I've seen five times, but that's my max. (Hell House does not rank as one of my favorites, but it's great for showing to new people who want to get a taste of this ghosthunting show I watch. :D)

Icons! Here, have Crowley looking smug.

[snickfic]

I think she had really convinced herself that she was pushing Sam forward to his greatness,

Absolutely agreed. And from her perspective, I think she was right; I think that what he accomplished and became capable of was great, and I doubt anyone would have been prouder to see Sam say yes and become Lucifer's vessel. (Not that there would be a lot of competition, there...)

The difference to me feels more about situational roles than anything.

Interesting. That had not occurred to me. I have to be honest, though, I still can't see it as being the same character. (Actual, in the name of further honesty, I'll confess that I mostly fast-forwarded through both the the priest!Azazel scenes when I watched yesterday.)

[snickfic]

I think I like your explanation the best - that the demon blood was a boost (and also a way to make Sam reliant on Ruby), but possible not necessary. OTOH, as someone else pointed out upstream, even in her final moments, Ruby's reliability as a narrator is dubious.

I feel like that was manipulation, too - like, drinking all of it will also make him less human, in a way, and thus more likely to say yes.

Interesting! That is not a theory I'd heard. Honestly, I don't see the demon blood by itself making him less human, any more than being addicted to a non-supernatural substance makes a person less human. When Sam tells Ruby that he can tell what he's done has changed him, he might believe that as being a physical change, but I see it as being a mental/spiritual one. I think the change he's feeling is as much an intangible effect of his choices as a tangible effect of his actions, if that makes any sense.

In closing: OH SAM.

[auroramama]

Yes, that's Dear Spouse's interpretation too!

[auroramama]

I also love powers!Sam dearly, and I loved it when he killed Alistair, though the show itself seemed to downplay that. I mean, if Dean had been the one to kill something that had tormented Sam for years, wouldn't it have been more of a Thing? But then Dean would use physical force, which is Good.

[jacyevans.livejournal.com]

I see it as being a mental/spiritual one. I think the change he's feeling is as much an intangible effect of his choices as a tangible effect of his actions, if that makes any sense.

That was what I meant, but I guess I phrased it wrong. Sam has a guilt streak a mile wide, and Lucifer knew that. As did Ruby, but I have even more feelings about that (Oh, Ruby.)

OH SAM INDEED. Every time I think I couldn't be more of a Sam girl...

[jacyevans.livejournal.com]

I loved it when he killed Alistair, though the show itself seemed to downplay that.

YES. I was cheering him on the entire time, and then they made it this No Good Horrible Very Bad Thing because you're using your powers, Sam, you should know better. Honestly, I try to forget the entire demon blood story line ever happened, as much as it can be forgotten, anyway. My dream Season 4 would have been Sam getting Dean out of hell himself, perhaps with Ruby's help. Angels, what angels?

[janice-lester.livejournal.com]

I like the explanation above, that what Ruby meant was that Sam would always have ended up there, she just gave him a nudge along the destined path. But my reading of the blood thing was that the demon blood gave Sam a boost he needed. He needed the boost because, unlike the other Psychic Power Kids, he'd been brought up to believe that anything supernatural, like having visions, was probably evil. Furthermore, his first experience with his super powers was the prophetic dream of his girlfriend dying horribly. Where the other kids were nasty pieces of work discovering nifty new ways to accomplish bad things, or good kids discovering relatively harmless new talents, Sam had no incentive to practice--had every reason to pretend none of this was happening, in fact. Somewhere--I guess in the missing chunk of time while Dean's away in Hell (though I can be a bit weak on canon despite repeated viewings)--Sam finds out, presumably from Ruby, that his powers can be used to exorcise demons. But it's like an undeveloped muscle. He hasn't been actively using the 'psychic' part of his brain. Even when he was getting the dreams, that was largely a passive process. It might take years of practice with little visible result to get him to the required level. And demon blood is a way to get around that problem, albeit a short-acting one. There's a limit to its ability to strengthen humans, though, because however much of the stuff Lucifer drank, he couldn't keep Nick from gradually melting around him.

(Does that make any sense?)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

If I were a Dean/Cas shipper, this absolutely would be my Dean/Cas icon, always and forever.

"If" indeed.

;)

[reapertownusa.livejournal.com]

I do love Colin Ford as young!Sam. He's a great kid actor and has done such a wonderful job with the character.

And I do also like Ridge Canipe as wee!Dean, but I think Dean gets harder to play as he gets older because at 18 he should be pretty Dean-esque, which is a character with a lot of complexity and not an easy one to pull off.

Five times for your favorites? Oh...I've seen even most the episodes I actively dislike more than five times and the rest...I watch SPN every weekday in the morning at breakfast, while I work, when I'm going to bed...five times a week for an episode maybe. Hmm...I might be a tad obsessive.

That's funny about Hell House and I know what you mean - when I lived closer to the city I was involved with a paranormal investigation group so those ghost hunting episodes do give me the giggles ;)

Guh - love smug Crowley!

[snickfic]

Interesting! That isn't a theory I've heard before, that the demon blood functioned like a shortcut instead of a necessary component.

There's a limit to its ability to strengthen humans, though, because however much of the stuff Lucifer drank, he couldn't keep Nick from gradually melting around him.

Good point! I'd forgotten about that.

[snickfic]

If Show hasn't made me a shipper, I don't think it's gonna. But you just keep on hoping! :D