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snick_backupShort answer: it's in the icon. *points*
For quite a long time I was pretty sure I'd never write post-series (or post-S6, really) Spuffy. For one thing, I just plain don't like canon after S6, and I'm not committed to any particular events in it. I've gone on at length about my feelings on Spike and Spike/Buffy in S7: I'm disinterested in newly soulled Spike, particularly as written, and Buffy's actions towards him from "Touched" on just make me mad.
Second, Spike makes no sense to me in Ats S5. In Chosen he dies (which also makes me mad; it's a cheap and ineffective bit of emotional manipulation, considering he's resurrected 17 days later) and comes back with a personality transplant. It's like we're watching a fic as written by someone who never care about Spike/Buffy or Spike's arc and would rather forget they happened. (Oh, wait...) I know some folks have no trouble viewing Ats S5 Spike as being IC, but I just can't manage it. Other than a few odd moments and the brilliance of Damage, Spike bears little resemblance to the character I see in S7, and the change in company is just not sufficient explanation for me.
And finally, based on what we see of Spike and Buffy in BtVS S7, it seems to me that there's an awful lot of emotional baggage to work through before we can get to a functional relationship, possibly even more baggage than post-S6, because now the old S6 baggage is stale and buried, and Spike and Buffy can pretend it isn't there, and the new S7 baggage ("Does it have to mean anything," the tongueless kiss in End of Days, "No you don't, but thanks for saying it.) exists largely because of everything they don't say to each other. They've built an entire friend/relation/something-ship on not talking about things. That'd be a difficult obstacle to overcome, especially since by the end of Ats S5 that lack of communication has built up a fair bit of inertia. Getting them to the point of attempting a real relationship would be a major undertaking, I think, and not one I have any interest in.
But! None of this has ever stopped me from reading and enjoying post-NFA Spuffy written by other folks. I didn't quite see how they got from canon to their characterizations, but since I preferred their characterizations, I couldn't be bothered to care much. Their Spike tended to be a happy blend of S7!Spike's soulful sensitivity and Ats!Spike's recovered self-image and sense of humor; their Buffy tended to have recovered somewhat from her three seasons of wrenching angst. Both were often nearer to being whole, stable people than we ever saw in canon.
And you know what? I've decided I'm fine with that. These are not the direct extensions of Spike and Buffy as I saw them on screen, but I like these better. I'd just as well like to read stories about them as about the canon versions, and fandom has amply provided! And in fact, I think I've reached the point where I can try writing those stories myself now. I've had two big post-NFA Spuffy projects bubbling in my brain for a while, and one of these days they just might get written.
So, I'm turning in my membership card to the canon-whore club (and is there any other, less offensive term? Because I hate that one more every time I have to use it). That's what I'm saying. I've put a lot of value in canon for a long time, and when we're talking anything pre-S7 it's still what I'm all about, but I don't have to be all the time, and that's okay. Embrace the fanon!
And if the next word out of your mouth is 'claiming,' Spike will HUNT YOU DOWN and SMACK YOU WITH A SPOON. You have been warned.
For quite a long time I was pretty sure I'd never write post-series (or post-S6, really) Spuffy. For one thing, I just plain don't like canon after S6, and I'm not committed to any particular events in it. I've gone on at length about my feelings on Spike and Spike/Buffy in S7: I'm disinterested in newly soulled Spike, particularly as written, and Buffy's actions towards him from "Touched" on just make me mad.
Second, Spike makes no sense to me in Ats S5. In Chosen he dies (which also makes me mad; it's a cheap and ineffective bit of emotional manipulation, considering he's resurrected 17 days later) and comes back with a personality transplant. It's like we're watching a fic as written by someone who never care about Spike/Buffy or Spike's arc and would rather forget they happened. (Oh, wait...) I know some folks have no trouble viewing Ats S5 Spike as being IC, but I just can't manage it. Other than a few odd moments and the brilliance of Damage, Spike bears little resemblance to the character I see in S7, and the change in company is just not sufficient explanation for me.
And finally, based on what we see of Spike and Buffy in BtVS S7, it seems to me that there's an awful lot of emotional baggage to work through before we can get to a functional relationship, possibly even more baggage than post-S6, because now the old S6 baggage is stale and buried, and Spike and Buffy can pretend it isn't there, and the new S7 baggage ("Does it have to mean anything," the tongueless kiss in End of Days, "No you don't, but thanks for saying it.) exists largely because of everything they don't say to each other. They've built an entire friend/relation/something-ship on not talking about things. That'd be a difficult obstacle to overcome, especially since by the end of Ats S5 that lack of communication has built up a fair bit of inertia. Getting them to the point of attempting a real relationship would be a major undertaking, I think, and not one I have any interest in.
But! None of this has ever stopped me from reading and enjoying post-NFA Spuffy written by other folks. I didn't quite see how they got from canon to their characterizations, but since I preferred their characterizations, I couldn't be bothered to care much. Their Spike tended to be a happy blend of S7!Spike's soulful sensitivity and Ats!Spike's recovered self-image and sense of humor; their Buffy tended to have recovered somewhat from her three seasons of wrenching angst. Both were often nearer to being whole, stable people than we ever saw in canon.
And you know what? I've decided I'm fine with that. These are not the direct extensions of Spike and Buffy as I saw them on screen, but I like these better. I'd just as well like to read stories about them as about the canon versions, and fandom has amply provided! And in fact, I think I've reached the point where I can try writing those stories myself now. I've had two big post-NFA Spuffy projects bubbling in my brain for a while, and one of these days they just might get written.
So, I'm turning in my membership card to the canon-whore club (and is there any other, less offensive term? Because I hate that one more every time I have to use it). That's what I'm saying. I've put a lot of value in canon for a long time, and when we're talking anything pre-S7 it's still what I'm all about, but I don't have to be all the time, and that's okay. Embrace the fanon!
And if the next word out of your mouth is 'claiming,' Spike will HUNT YOU DOWN and SMACK YOU WITH A SPOON. You have been warned.
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Date: 2010-12-07 12:31 am (UTC)I have read all kinds of S2, S3, etc Spuffy that I can't believe would ever really happen, so I don't see why post-Chosen fic should be any different. (It does make me treasure all the more the much rarer fics I CAN believe would happen.)
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Date: 2010-12-07 01:24 am (UTC)Oh, I've read tons of unlikely Spuffy fic. But I don't really take it seriously. All the time there's the little reservation in the back of my head that says, "These aren't really your characters." And post-NFA, they sort of are. At that point, my commitment to and recall of the recent canon is weak enough that I can buy a much wider range of characterization than I can during the series.
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Date: 2010-12-07 01:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-07 01:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-07 01:48 am (UTC)Their Spike tended to be a happy blend of S7!Spike's soulful sensitivity and Ats!Spike's recovered self-image and sense of humor; their Buffy tended to have recovered somewhat from her three seasons of wrenching angst. Both were often nearer to being whole, stable people than we ever saw in canon.
Haha! This might be true of my one-shots, but is decidedly not true of my long epic Spuffy fic.
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Date: 2010-12-07 01:50 am (UTC)I like fic, too! Maybe we should make a club.
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:02 am (UTC)pain'splot's sake?Meep I always feel bad whenever I mention tysk, my poor baby! so neglected! Forever alone.
Soooo....
I think we're already in the club. *glances around* We just don't have a name yet. Or t-shirts. Oooh there should be t-shirts!
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:04 am (UTC)On one hand, everything is better with t-shirts. On the other, if I wore it then I'd have to explain it...
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:10 am (UTC)Can't you just rebuff such questions with a sneering look and say, "You don't know? Seriously? Pfft."
Or it could be a comfy sleep shirt. I love those. Haha, or it could be you're at-home-on-the-internet-avoiding-the-real-world shirt. I love those, too.
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:16 am (UTC)As I told someone else, I think it's that round about the beginning of S7 and especially after the end of it, I'll buy a much wider range of characterization than before. I have much stronger opinions about characterization earlier on.
Sneering really isn't part of my facial repertoire. Shocked, aren't you?
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:23 am (UTC)As for events, I think I tend to view it as a mash-up opportunity. Maintaining the canon forces at work but remixing the specifics. (Does that make sense? I'm not sure how to express it better.)
Well, you're doomed to not have your face stuck that way then.
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:38 am (UTC)What I was saying in the post, though, is that I've about gotten to that point with post-series Spuffy. Not that I'm convinced they could never develop into the relatively stable and mature couple, but that I find it unlikely, particularly in the timespan often portrayed. OTOH, a lot of the fic I'm thinking kind of skips the messy reconnection stage altogether by being set several years after their reunion.
Note that I find such fic much more likely if I accept your and Lauren and Quin's interpretations of Spuffy in S7. I can't seem to get there on my own by just rewatching the canon, but if I take y'all's interpretation as a starting point, then I can get to the functional post-series Spuffy space with a lot less effort. And I like the implications your interpretation, even though I can't get directly to it myself.
Maintaining the canon forces at work but remixing the specifics.
Yes. Although how much I care about preserving the canon forces depends a lot on what we're talking about. Like, I have no attachment to hardly anything that happens in S4, and I would merrily sweep the whole Riley/Initiative arc away with a single event, if I needed to for some reason and could find the event to do it. Whereas with S5, it pretty much has to be about Dawn and Glory (because if there's no Glory there's no Dawn) and Buffy's identity as a Slayer. (I mean, the entire show is about Buffy's identity as a Slayer at one level or another, but when I think of "Buffy as Slayer," I think of S5.) Likewise, I'm pretty much committed to Joyce dying in S5, because that element of prosaic tragedy versus supernatural tragedy is really key to the show, and also because finding a way to prevent it convincingly would be hard.
Well, you're doomed to not have your face stuck that way then.
Drat! Foiled again!
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Date: 2010-12-07 04:09 am (UTC)*is curious*
How would you define your position and theirs?
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Date: 2010-12-07 04:53 am (UTC)Like I said, that's on my less charitable days. On others I say that Buffy was simply too busy with and exhausted from Slayer duties and the Neverending Sleepover of DOOM to give her relationship with Spike the attention it needed, which resulted in general miscommunication and confusion and hurt feelings on Spike's part.
Whereas of those who really like S7 Spuffy, the consensus seems to be that they build an intensely deep, meaningful, and personal relationship expressed almost entirely in action and body language and facial expression; that the most important part of the post-Touched speech isn't "Does it have to mean anything" but "Were you there with me / I was" (or possibly "Let's go be heroes"), and that the flamey hands scene in Chosen is an apt and glorious symbol of their mutual and mutually-understood love.
It's largely a matter of emphasis, I think. (The real mystery is why three of my four Spuffy icons are from S7, considering my feelings...)
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Date: 2010-12-07 09:01 am (UTC)Heh, just thought I should say that for me, at least, that's a sort of 'close but no cigar' representation of my view. I'd say 'were you there with me' / 'I was' is the most important bit, but I haven't really cared about the flamey hands in a long time (I don't really put any value in stuff from Spike turning up in Touched onwards, to be honest, because I don't really like his speech and the Angel kiss really doesn't work with my Buffy characterisation). Anyway, for me Buffy's facial expressions say a lot, but not as much as lines like 'I'll help you' in Sleeper, 'I believe in you' in NLM and the contextually defined 'I'm not ready for you to not be here' (because it's explicitly not about fighting). I like S7 because they at least approach being straight with each other.
But I totally agree with you about Angel S5. :D (Though I think he's actually most IC at the end of Life of the Party when he's staring out over the city, looking a little lost. But when I first watched that I was still convinced he was going to contact Buffy when he became corporeal...)
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Date: 2010-12-08 12:06 am (UTC)(Though I think he's actually most IC at the end of Life of the Party when he's staring out over the city, looking a little lost.
Yeah. I just expected Spike to be a whole lot angstier than we see. His emotions are so naked all through S7, and then to have him return into the crude joker of Ats S5 was a rude shock. But, as you say, there are bits here and there that make more sense.
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Date: 2010-12-08 12:24 am (UTC)I don't actually watch AtS S5 anymore (or, at least, I haven't in ages), because I can't not read Spike as essentially putting on a massive front over upset and misery. All his scenes make me sad. :(
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Date: 2010-12-07 08:59 pm (UTC)Yes! I think that's an important distinction for me, too. Otherwise it'd be impossible to reconcile my canon obsession with my fic (which is mainly of the "starts out canon but goes AU at some point" variety). It's the "starts out canon" that's most crucial to me, because the characters have to stay true to who they are on the show, even if they're plunked down in different situations.
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Date: 2010-12-07 01:50 am (UTC)I think one of the most enjoyable things about reading fanfic is meeting the characters as they could be, rather than as they were. As long as I can still recognize them and not feel like they've had personality transplants, I'm very happy to read about them living in a better world where they can get past their issues and build a life together. Although, since I tend to be a big fan of angst, I don't mind if they have to work a bit to get to that point. :)
I'll be looking forward to your Spuffy post NFA fics.
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Date: 2010-12-07 01:54 am (UTC)Exactly. I mean, I want them to still have issues, or what fun would that be? Different issues, maybe.
I'll be looking forward to your Spuffy post NFA fics.
Hee, well, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. They're on the backburner at the moment (although one of them would be an epic extension of the post-apocolyptic mpreg ficlet).
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:08 am (UTC)*shrugs*
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Date: 2010-12-07 02:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-07 04:01 am (UTC)Anyway, as a non-writer but voracious reader, I sometimes am in the mood for a fluffy fic where Spike and Buffy in no way resemble their canon selves. There are quite a few out there. But all the best fics that I have read show Spike and Buffy perfectly in character, no matter what season it takes place in.
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Date: 2010-12-07 04:57 am (UTC)I... kind of do. *g* As in, "Oh yes, there was that year when Spike hung out with Angel, and there was this cool Illyria chick and they bonded. And then he got fed up with the whole business and moved on to better things, but he brought Illyria along for company."
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Date: 2010-12-07 08:56 am (UTC)But I've had this circa-Destiny WIP that I'm trying to finish, and Buffy will not stop talking! It's very unlike her. I have a possible explanation (she was forced into grief counseling, and once the floodgates opened, nobody could get the flow of words to stop) but I'm just...not happy. It's so close, but there's something off in her characterization. *sigh*
Um, "Canon-devotée"? Or my new favorite, "Loves canon, but needn't be ridiculous about it."
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Date: 2010-12-07 11:51 pm (UTC)Exactly. Your "With This Ring" 'verse is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Okay, maybe it's a bit overly optimistic, but after 7 seasons of Joss, I say: bring on the optimism!
Good luck with your WIP. If you need another perspective, I could take a look.
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Date: 2010-12-08 10:14 am (UTC)Whew! I thought you'd never ask...
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Date: 2010-12-08 02:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-07 08:57 pm (UTC)Claiming claiming claiming!
(Actually, I don't even like claiming, I just want a spanking from Spike. *g*)
ANYWAY. I don't really have much problem with S7 Spuffy, or even AtS Spike, but I have definitely noticed the tendency to make post-NFA Spuffy much happier and more stable than I can really buy (at least in the immediate future) based on canon. Which occasionally I used to enjoy reading, but I am, after all, all about the angst, so I preferred stories that attempted to dig right into all the messy stuff that's left from S7.
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Date: 2010-12-07 11:53 pm (UTC)I do still like post-NFA angst, but it seems to depend on what kind. At the moment I don't have any useful criteria to differentiate between the kinds I like and the kinds I don't. Hmm. Perhaps I need to cogitate on this.
have my favorite s7 icon!
Date: 2010-12-07 10:49 pm (UTC)And I agree that a lot of writers kind of skip over the messy reconciliation (and yes, I know it would be messy, but I think it could be ultimately constructive).
At any rate, I'm very pleased you've reached the "I'm just going to enjoy it" part. That's how I feel, honestly, about, like 90% of fics set before S5. I just cannot buy most of them, but I still enjoy reading them.
I also enjoyed reading your compare/contrast comment re: different views of S7 that you left for
Oh, and one more thing--
CLAIMING!
[eta] And I agree about AtS S5. Completely. There are some really great moments, and I enjoy a lot of his interactions with Angel and others, but it doesn't feel like an extension of his journey at all.
Re: have my favorite s7 icon!
Date: 2010-12-08 12:00 am (UTC)Hmm. I think I'd have to read them all again! Shucky darn. *g* I'd say that babyfic I read bits of once upon a time had the makings of being pretty near canon, at least from Buffy's side. (It's harder to judge Spike, since the shanshu could potentially change quite a bit about him anyway.)
At any rate, I'm very pleased you've reached the "I'm just going to enjoy it" part.
And it's you and Quin and St. Salieri and a few other folks that've brought me to that point, because I do enjoy your fics so much, even though they're more optimistic than I usually manage to be. I've decided to embrace the optimism, because I want to, that's why.
WAP! WAP!
Well, there is Damage. Then again, I feel that that ep feels less like a continuation of his journey and more a FITB, something of the sort that I wanted to see sometime in S7 and didn't.
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Date: 2010-12-07 11:34 pm (UTC)And I'm of the mind that if I can hear the character's voices, if I can buy the story the author is telling, if it is plausible, reasonable, and written well without cliches or fandom tropes, then I'm a happy gal. In a realm with so many different possibilities of the supernatural, it's easy to take things off course. The trick is, does it work, and, do I buy it? If yes to both of those things? BRING IT.
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Date: 2010-12-07 11:55 pm (UTC)I think maybe I'm pickier about characterization than you, then. Good voices are definitely a must, but then I want the characters' choices and actions and behavior to bear some resemblance to canon, as well. That's harder to do, though, I think. And of course everyone has different opinions about what's in-character.
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Date: 2010-12-08 12:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-08 12:01 am (UTC)I mean, BIRD WATCHING. Never in a million.
At least, not those kind of birds. ;)
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Date: 2010-12-08 12:16 am (UTC)And I, consequently, have posted a post-series one shot over the weekend. If you're feelin' all Dr. Strangelove-acceptable and everything. :)
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Date: 2010-12-08 12:17 am (UTC)I'm still pining for At Your Service, BTW. Just in case you were worried we'd forgotten about you. :)
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Date: 2010-12-08 12:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-08 12:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-08 10:14 am (UTC)It's like we're watching a fic as written by someone who never care about Spike/Buffy or Spike's arc and would rather forget they happened. (Oh, wait...) I know some folks have no trouble viewing Ats S5 Spike as being IC, but I just can't manage it. Other than a few odd moments and the brilliance of Damage, Spike bears little resemblance to the character I see in S7, and the change in company is just not sufficient explanation for me.
I was really pleased when I learned that Spike was coming back from the dead and would be in AtS, but was very disappointed with how it turned out. For one thing he seems to have dropped at least 50 IQ points. :( In other words, I agree with you.
They've built an entire friend/relation/something-ship on not talking about things.
This appears to be what Joss is trying to illustrate in the Spuffy fantasy sex scenes in the comic. If he will ever allow them to move on from that place, who knows? I suspect not. I think he has them pretty pigeonholed in his mind, and that's not a place where I care for. It just sticks them in an irritating limbo IMO.
I know my own versions of the characters (particularly Buffy) aren't that close to canon, but I like to think they could be extrapolated from canon if you squint. Perhaps not. But anyway, I've never really looked at fanfic as an extension of canon, which is probably why I never got on with any of the virtual seasons that appeared the year after AtS ended. For me, fanfic is more to complement canon, which is why I much preferred Buffyverse canon when it was indisputably closed.
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Date: 2010-12-08 06:14 pm (UTC)I find it extremely irritating - although really, I'd probably like it even less if he finally shut the ship down with one or the other of them riding off into the sunset or someone else's arms. I guess I'm pretty spoiled that way - I like having a ship that's not directly canon-contradictory. *g*
I do like your Spike and Buffy very much. Your Buffy's all growed up, in some ways, and I really appreciate that. I want her to be a functional adult who's managed to integrate her various identities into one whole. That's what I want for her, and that's a character I want to read about as well.
I definitely prefer closed canon as well. It's too stressful otherwise, for one thing.
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Date: 2010-12-08 10:47 pm (UTC)Me too, which is why the comics have been such a blow, because they've really hammered home what Joss thinks about Spuffy (which is, basically, not a lot).
I do like your Spike and Buffy very much. Your Buffy's all growed up, in some ways, and I really appreciate that. I want her to be a functional adult who's managed to integrate her various identities into one whole.
Thank you. I know it's not the only way she could develope from the end of season 7, but I really don't think it's impossible that she could become such a person.