Spikeian musings

[snick_backup]

The other day I was chatting about Spike (as one does) with diamondtook862. Who is, incidentally, writing an S6 Spuffy AU, Best Intentions, in which some changes are made and they, ah, don't actually help all that much. It's an antidote to the sappier S6 fix-it fics, and DT has some very specific and very interesting places she's planning to go with it. I recommend!

Anyway. In the course of the chat I found I'd summed up my ideas about Spike's soul quest:

The AR triggers Spike's soul quest because he disappoints and shocks himself by breaking his own ironclad rule, which says that he never hurts Buffy, not really. We may see his verbal jabs and his nagging for sex as harmful, but he doesn't. It's not until the AR that he so shocks himself with the results of his own behavior that he's willing to get a soul to make it right.

I think that epiphany is key to his journey: the realization that even he is dissatisfied with his evil nature. I'm a really hard sell on fic that tries to send him questing for any lesser reason.

Comments

[ghostyouknow27.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree. It's at that moment that he realizes that he hasn't changed – that he's evil and capable of hurting the woman he loves – and that he doesn't want to be that person anymore.

I'm also eager to see DT's fic develop. I know the basic trajectory, and it's very unique and interesting.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yup. I think his reasoning was hugely complicated (and again I intone Katherine Anne Porter: "There is no such thing as an exact synonym and no such thing as an unmixed motive"), but I think if you distilled it, my reasoning would be pretty close to your own. With the addition of him being confused as to why his violating that rule even matters to him. As Buffy puts it: "Can't be a man, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in?"

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll bite. What other reason could there be?

[rahirah]

Well, yeah...

(I've read parts of that story and while I find it very well written, Spike is such a jerk in it that I just hope that Buffy gets fed up and stakes him.)

[snickfic]

Yes, just one more huge step in his whole long arc of huge steps - which is part of why I love the character, I think.

[snickfic]

Weeell, I've seen people (mostly non-Spike people, granted) cast the soul quest as Spike trying to find something to give to Buffy as an apology - "like a nice bouquet, only better" is how I think one person put it. That is, the focus is on him making things up to Buffy and not on trying to become a better man. I think there's some of both, and I think the key phrase "Give her what she deserves" implies both. But I think throwing the emphasis entirely on "Spike groveling for Buffy" cheapens the decision.

[snickfic]

Heh. I suspect that what you're reading as "Spike is a jerk," I'm reading as "true to S6 characterization." Which are in no way incompatible interpretations...

[snickfic]

I definitely agree there's identity crisis stuff going on there, but by that point I'm not sure I agree that he's confused, exactly. I'd need to rewatch the post-AR rantings again to say for sure, but it seems to me that he's not so much confused about why it matters to him as he is upset to find that his two impulses - to be devastated and to not care - are in contradiction. He's said all along that he can be evil and love at the same time, those two things are pointing him in opposite directions, and he's just now having to deal with the fact.

Like I said, though, I'd need to rewatch that bit to be sure.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

No, no, no, I think we agree, I just didn't phrase it correctly. I meant he's confused as to what that means for him and who he is in light of it (identity crisis, like you said). You pretty much summed it up:

upset to find that his two impulses - to be devastated and to not care - are in contradiction. He's said all along that he can be evil and love at the same time, those two things are pointing him in opposite directions, and he's just now having to deal with the fact.

That's what I was trying to get at!

[snickfic]

We are in agreement! All is right with the world again. *g*

(Also, I see the resonance and rocket launchers are gone.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yay!

(You mean as the title of my journal? I'm taking a Doctor Who induced break. I suspect they'll be back.)

[snickfic]

(Yeah, that's what I meant. One of these days I am going to watch all the New Who! I mean it!)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'd definitely enjoy hearing your thoughts. There are some things you'd really love and some things that would make you frustrated, but I'm not always sure which is which!

[snickfic]

Hee! Well, one of these days.

[rahirah]

Spike was often a jerk in S6, but that's not all he was. (Spike is also capable of being a complete asshole with a soul - see Harmony.) But if I thought that being a jerk was all there was to pre-soul Spike, I never would have shipped them to begin with. :/

There's a long tradition of S/B stories where S6 Spike is a poor misunderstood woobie who never did anything wrong, and Buffy is a callous, heartless bitch for not falling madly in love with him the moment he offers to stake Drusilla for her. In an understandable reaction to that, in the last few years there have been a good many stories where S6 Buffy is a poor misunderstood woobie who never did anything wrong, and Spike is an entitled asshole who just wants to get into her pants.

I've often seen Buffy fans complaining about the former type of story, saying that if they really think Buffy is such a bitch, why ship Spuffy at all? I agree with that sentiment, but I think it applies equally well in reverse. But I know I'm in the fannish minority there. *shrug*

[snickfic]

But if I thought that being a jerk was all there was to pre-soul Spike, I never would have shipped them to begin with.

Oh, definitely agreed. It's the complexity that fascinates me, not the assholery as such. I do have a certain sympathy for the people writing the latter type of story you describe - I've read an awful lot of S6 fics where once Buffy accepts the fabulousness of Spike, he single-handedly fixes the entire season.

I think it's a hard line to walk, because they're both so complex , each with their own virtues and flaws, and it's hard to capture all that at once. I know I have trouble with it - I actually wish I could write soulless!Spike with somewhat sharper edges than I usually manage.

[rahirah]

Oh, there's a ton of crappy woobie-Spike fic out there, no argument. But I get the impression that it's a dying trend, at least on LJ. There are writers who can hit both of them right on the head for me - Kalima and TheDeadlyHook for two, both sadly gafiated. But it is damned difficult, and I'm sure as heck not going to claim I could do it myself.

[next_to_normal]

There's also the oh-so-clever "he just did it to get in her pants" explanation.

[elisi]

shipperx once talked about this very well. (Sort of goes on from your point.)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I love you for this explanation. Just in case I don't leave a more eloquent description of my agreement further down thread.

[snickfic]

Ooh, thanks for the link! I'll check it out. :)

[snickfic]

Hah. Excellent! Glad I could verbalize things clearly. :)