Fanfic rants day in the Land of Snick.

[snick_backup]

First: I think you think that Spike waggling his eyebrows is sexy. However, when I think of the words "waggle" and "eyebrows" together, I think of Groucho Marx. So unless you'd like to tell us something about your kinky love for the Marx Brothers...

Second: Suppose, driving away from Angel and Buffy battling it out in "Becoming," fic!Spike feels a warm wash of goodwill for the Slayer and hopes she wins. And he thinks to himself, Who'd have thought William the Bloody would come to this?

Or, suppose fic!Spike finds Dawn a girly birthday present during the long, sad summer and reflects how Angel would be laughing himself silly to see him now.

Or again, suppose fic!Spike stumbles through a book titled Raising Your Teen, cringing every few pages with fresh embarrassment that he's reading the thing at all.

Few Buffyverse characters are actually that strong on self-reflection; I have trouble believing the rest of them regularly look at themselves with this much perspective. So when I'm reading along and Spike or Buffy (or other characters, but mostly I see it with these two) basically think to themselves, "Gee, this is out of character for me," it both feels awkward and makes me suspicious of the characterization, even when I was okay with it otherwise. It comes across to me as the author feeling like they have to lampshade their own insecurities about their characterization - whether they're afraid it's too schmoopy, too "nice," whatever. Which, as I said: awkward and glaring.

This is clearly a YMMV sort of thing, and it absolutely depends on how it's done. More often than not, though, I end up wishing the author had left these sentiments out.

Comments

[diamondtook862.livejournal.com]

Hm, these things mostly aggravate me too (I really don't have a problem with eyebrow waggling, but maybe cause I never liked the Marx brothers?).

Now that I'm writing fic for the first time, I'm starting to worry about this kind of thing more personally. Do you think self-reflection in general is not as common as people think, or mainly self-reflection about being out of character? Cause I like the self-reflection, though not when it spells everything out. I like some subtlety with my internal perspective, you know? But the second thing is definitely out.

I'm actually having a bit of a fight with self-reflection in characterization right now and find myself writing a ton of bare bones dialogue, just cause it feels more like the show format, but I'm a bit worried that will make the more internal bits stand out too much.

[snickfic]

I think the waggling eyebrows thing is totally a matter of people describing something using words that maybe aren't accurate and definitely don't give me the image I think they're going for.

I'm not opposed to self-reflection in general. It really is all in the way it's handled, and I don't think I managed to give very good examples. Usually, what I have a problem with are one-liners in which the character considers how weird it is/feels that they're doing/feeling such-and-such. Like I said: they're very specific instances where it feels like the author is acknowledging/apologizing for the way they've written the characters.

Then again, "feels like" is a very subjective sort of description; hence the Your Mileage May Vary label. :)

[diamondtook862.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I got the author-apology thing and I agree. :) It was just this line that had me unsure:

"Few Buffyverse characters are actually that strong on self-reflection"

Makes sense now!

[gigi-tastic.livejournal.com]

you my friend have earned todays FTW. you mentioned spike, sexy, and the marx brothers in the same sentence... well in two sentiences. i compleatly agree on the need to justify why a charcter does what they do all the time by saying if my friends/sire/pimp could see me now.... who would have thunk it? can bug me. i feel sort of insulted. like i wont notice that ... i need an example

say the authors writing about a spell of comradrey gone wrong on the scoob's however the reader has not been let in on that yet. just another day in sunnydale as far as were concerned. so were reading and we stumble into some interaction in this case we're seeing ... xander taking care of ... spike who's home with the vamp flu. no make it chicken er.. bat pox. why? because i say so. and xanders being really wonderful and caring. he reads bedtime stories to spike and gets him a cool washcloth for his forehead and he's going to make spike some blood noodle soup. he even goes so far as giving him a teddy bear . he's doing all the wonderful things your mom did or you wanted her to do when you were sick. now say this is set in s6 after buffy was almost raped. so xanders making the bloody noodle soup for spike and he starts thinking huh if you had told me three years ago i would be caring for spike i would have hit you. or something. i'm not in the mood to write dialog right now. or to bother with proper punctuation and grammer. anyway i think i can come to the conclusion that xander doesnt normally act this way on my own. i am contrary to popular belief not stupid. i fail at life but i am NOT. stupid. i repeat NOT. STUPID. so please.. stop writing down to me. as xander once said our reading make are english good. so help make my english even better with good well written fic.

this went on a completely different kind of rant. sorry!

cleary as the reader i know he isnt acting right

[next_to_normal]

*uses eyebrow action icon*

When I see eyebrow waggling, I tend to imagine an exaggerated action that's intended to be sexy, but mostly comes off silly (or is sometimes consciously silly). Which is sometimes what the author was going for, and sometimes... not.

I think it's natural sometimes to think, "Wow, I'm not normally like this," or "WTF am I thinking?" but it has to be done pretty skillfully in writing - like you say, if it's basically an author lampshading their own insecurities, then it's probably going to come off sounding awkward. And using the words "out of character" in a fic is a definite no-no.

[snickfic]

And using the words "out of character" in a fic is a definite no-no.

Absolutely. I don't think I've ever seen anything that blatant.

[silverusagi]

You know, it's not the reflection that bothers me in fics, it's the action to begin with. Most of the time, with certain scenes like that in fic, it seems the action is happening because the author wants it to happen, not because it's natural for the characters for it to happen. Which sounds odd, because obviously the only reason we're writing fic is because we want things to happen.

Example. Say Buffy is sick and Spike brings her a present. He might do flowers or chocolates (hell, he did chocolates in canon), but he is not going to spend five minutes at the drugstore choosing between the stuffed yellow rabbit and the stuffed white teddy bear.

But I don't have much patience for overly schmoopy things. Not that I don't think characters can be sweet to each other, but there's a line between showing they care and being over the top/borderline OOC.

[snickfic]

It's true - often the author is feeling insecure because she's written something to feel insecure about. But not always - I've read perfectly acceptable characterizations that suddenly turned awkward solely because the author said something like this.

You? Not like schmoopiness? I would never have guessed. (Your Spike is one of the non-schmoopier Spikes I've ever run across, at least as written by a Spike fan.)

[silverusagi]

Heh. I had a very hard time writing the chapter where Buffy helps Spike dye his hair. That's about as schmoopy as I can get. But it can't be that OOC, I reasoned, since he has to dye his hair sometime, LOL.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Right before I read this, I had re-read a fic of mine wherein Spike waggles his eyebrows, but as he was sort of channeling Groucho at the time, I can't take the complaint too personally. Heh

In other news, my brain is too fried to tease out the thinky thoughts. Carry on with that awesome critical thinking. I'll catch up later...

[snickfic]

Oh? Which fic was this?

It's okay. Now my brain is too fried to tease them out, too.

Waggle, waggle

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Mysteries of the Kitchen, http://rebcake.livejournal.com/22519.html

(One day, I'll remember the code for pretty links.)

By way of explanation, I do find men in established relationships being silly to be rather sexy...

[dampersnspoons.livejournal.com]

Waggling eyebrows doesn't bother me, it's when he waggles his tongue that I start to get worried.

[snickfic]

Hee. That is quite the image...

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

However, when I think of the words "waggle" and "eyebrows" together, I think of Groucho Marx.

Oh good. I thought I was the only one. I just get this mental image of Spike with Groucho eyebrows and a big cigar hanging out of his mouth. *is somewhere between a shudder and a giggle*

Few Buffyverse characters are actually that strong on self-reflection; I have trouble believing the rest of them regularly look at themselves with this much perspective.

Huh. I'd never thought about it, but that is something that will bother me (without me being able to put a finger on why it bothers me). Interesting.

[snickfic]

And we agree! Hurrah. *g*

(Seriously? You get the Grouch Marx image too? I feel less strange now.)