"Selfless" and "Him"

[snick_backup]

Selfless
Good things: Emma Caulfield is excellent here. Oh, poor identity-crisis Anya breaks my heart! The Olaf/Aud flashbacks crack me up - apparently everyone in that time period was strangely literal. And again, I'm really liking the Anya/Willow friendship developing here - I'd totally forgotten it from the first watch. And the Spike-in-the-basement scene is a heart-wringer.

Bad things: Some of the writing is pretty lame, particularly everything Buffy appears in. Anya as a vengeance demon again represents a huge dilemma to our valiant Scoobies, and the episode acknowledges that, but it does so with a flat, obvious argument scene between Buffy and Xander with no nuance at all. And all Buffy's "I am the law" stuff felt like it needed a whole lot of build-up, rather than this sudden foregone conclusion. In fact, pretty much all the Buffy character 'development' in this ep felt as though it was assuming a bunch of previous development we've never seen.

(However, I like how the fact that Xander lied to Buffy in "Becoming" finally came to light, sort of.)

Housemate's opinion: "Pain done right." It hit all the right places, dramatically speaking. She found the cut from "I'll Be His Misses" to Anya with a sword through extremely effective.

Question: is it ever stated in canon that vengeance demons have to be beheaded to be killed? Or is that fanon?

Him
Good: Okay, you guys, fine. You win. I enjoyed this episode much more the second time. Those last few minutes are great. I think my favorite bit was the shot of Wood in his office while we see Buffy and Spike tussling in the background.

Also, yay for Spike being Not in the Basement. Yay for whole minutes together of lucidity!

I love that Michelle Trachtenberg was actually Dawn's age while playing Dawn. It makes a huge difference in the authenticity of the character. I also really liked the Buffy/Dawn sisterly love there at the end.

Bad: The Buffy/RJ stuff still squicks me like an extremely squicky thing. The Dawn/RJ stuff, meanwhile, hits my humiliation squick like whoa - Housemate can attest I had my eyes closed a good part of the time. And yeah, just the general fawning girls thing was still pretty hard to take.

Plus, more lameness in the writing department: Dawn raises all those questions about souled!Spike and Buffy's feelings for same, which are great questions inelegantly phrased, made much more frustrating for that fact that, on the former topic, at least, we never get any proper exploration. Argh!

Housemate: Enjoyed seeing Buffy a little manic. Was creeped out by how readily RJ followed Buffy's lead.

Also, it turns out this is an ep that makes me think of fic, which meant first Housemate absolutely had to read Perfect for Home or Office, by deird1, which cracked her up. This led to Towels, also by deird1, which we ended up reading out loud to Housemate's husband - I took the Xander parts and she took the Spike parts (having spent time in England and therefore being more qualified than I.) Hilarity was had by all.

And, speaking of the housemate: see Wizard!Giles there? That is the dedicated Housemate Icon, selected by the housemate herself from my ample stash.

Comments

[deird1]

Question: is it ever stated in canon that vengeance demons have to be beheaded to be killed? Or is that fanon?

Fanon. Definitely.


Also, it turns out this is an ep that makes me think of fic, which meant first Housemate absolutely had to read Perfect for Home or Office, by deird1, which cracked her up. This led to Towels, also by deird1, which we ended up reading out loud to Housemate's husband - I took the Xander parts and she took the Spike parts (having spent time in England and therefore being more qualified than I.) Hilarity was had by all.

*blushes*

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Re Fanon thing: Well, we do know that stabbing doesn't work. Wouldn't totally go against the grain that beheading would work. Or rather, isn't that kind of implied in canon?

[snickfic]

Sometimes it's really hard to remember which is canon and which is fanon. And I know I've run across the death-by-beheading thing in multiple fics.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

apparently everyone in that time period was strangely literal.

Heh, I wonder if that was due to it being translated--like I mean, that that's why it sounded so literal and it was purposely done? Probably not.

I loved Anya's "I'll Be His Misses," and wish it'd been in the actual musical (and therefore, on the soundtrack).

Agree with the "lame writing" bits.

The Buffy and RJ humping creep me out. Outside of a few funny moments, it felt like a filler ep (to me).

[snickfic]

I'm pretty sure the awkward literalness was entirely for humorous effect. And it worked. :)

I confess, I wasn't all that excited about "I'll Be His Misses." Partly it's that I really don't care about Xander/Anya, and partly it's that the scene really lacks the Whedon visual touch. OMWF isn't the amazing TV it is just for the songs, but for the costuming and meticulous sets and camerawork, none of which shows up here.

The housemate wanted to know if Buffy and RJ actually had sex, to which I replied, "For the sake of my mental well-being, I assume not." Am I in the minority there? I'm known to be very good at denial about this sort of thing...

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure it was just (gross and obscene and unnecessary) dry humping. It's a wonder Possessed!Dawn didn't try to kill herself right then and there...

And I'm sure Buffy would have mentioned banging him as a confirmation of "their love" later if it had happened. That one upped her over Dawn and anyone else if it had. My thoughts, anyway.

Also, I don't think they'd have the lead go that far under a spell...it just doesn't seem likely.

[snickfic]

Good points, all. Yes, one would hope that if the lead had had sex while under a spell, the show would've made something of it (the way it really didn't when Joyce/Giles was the couple in question...)

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing about Joyce/Giles was that it was theoretically them in their right minds--just their teenaged right minds, which is why it seems more of a gray area to me.

The whole RJ jacket thing induced thoughts that those women more than likely wouldn't have had ever.

[snickfic]

I... suppose. I dunno. I always wished a bit more would've been made of that incident, but then the show spent almost zero time on Giles and Joyce's private lives anyway, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Hrmm...

*strokes invisible beard*

<--may do a poll of some kind

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

RJ and Buffy? No, she'd just climbed up on his fully clad body when Xander interrupted with this "Get off the boy, Buffy." I never thought for one second that they were actually have sex that quickly. That's obviously what Buffy had in mind, but... I'd be surprised if anyone actually thought she was. This was a humorous episode. I can't imagine anyone (of the writers) thinking it would be funny or a good idea for their hero to have actual sex with a boy she'd just met. They've never treated her sex life as something that unimportant.

[snickfic]

Okay, well, good. The internet agrees with me. It hadn't occurred to me, either, because as you say, generally the show is not exactly understated when displaying Buffy's sex life. But then the housemate asked, and I was thrown into sudden doubt...

[next_to_normal]

The housemate wanted to know if Buffy and RJ actually had sex, to which I replied, "For the sake of my mental well-being, I assume not."

There have been extensive discussions about that, lol. Consensus says fandom is in denial with you!

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

lol! I didn't remember doing that poll (though I remembered stormwreath's).

I firmly believe that Buffy did not have sex with RJ. Nothing anyone says will make me believe otherwise (cause I'll have my hands over my ears while I yell LA LA LA).

[next_to_normal]

The wonders of gmail. I don't ever delete comment notifications so I just had to do a search for "RJ" and all three posts came up. :)

And I am soooo with you on the LA LA LA.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

is it ever stated in canon that vengeance demons have to be beheaded to be killed? Or is that fanon?

Anya gets stabbed, I believe in The Wish, and survives it just fine. But there's no way for Buffyverse Buffy to know that. Beheading is not known to be a reliable to kill vengeance demons in canon; only Hallie gets killed and only by burning. A vengeance demon can turn human upon being deprived of her power center (Anya's is in an amulet) and then killed in the ordinary human ways.

Selfless is by far my favorite episode of S7. That scene change from I'll Be Mrs. to stab is fantastic. But I love Spike/First/Buffy and I love seeing the callbacks to Something Blue (Willow's talisman) and Becoming (Xander's advice about Angel). Dawn's bit at the start is fun, too. Oh, it's so very good.

Buffy/RJ stuff still squicks me like an extremely squicky thing


Not just you. And I have no humiliation kink for Dawn/RJ either.

[snickfic]

Yes, Spike/First/Buffy is just heartbreaking (although, are we sure that's the First? She appears to actually be touching Spike, so I thought maybe it was just him dreaming/hallucinating). And, yay to callbacks! It's one of the things I love about this show: it never throws anything away.

Also: welcome! I saw you'd friended recently. Feel free to drop in on any conversations you like, new or old. :)

[deird1]

Anya gets stabbed, I believe in The Wish, and survives it just fine.

*is confused* When? The only similar event I can think of is Hallie getting stabbed in Older and Far Away - and Buffy saw that.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Yes you're right. That was Halfrek and OaFA. In The Wish, Giles reads from his Watcher books, "in order to defeat Anyanka, one must destroy her power center." So according to that book, even beheading wouldn't work.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Buffy stabs Anya after she has killed all the frat boys. But Anya just smiles and says, "you should know you can't kill a vengeance demon that easily" or words to that affect. It's D'Hofren (sp?) who kills Hallie, so we don't know how he did it, other than he's powerful demon and her boss. She burns up, I think, but he causes it somehow.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

is it ever stated in canon that vengeance demons have to be beheaded to be killed?

Nope. When the Sword Demon runs Halfrek through in OAFA, she says, "What? Oh, like I would be stopped by a sword in the chest. Flesh wound. Honestly, Anyanka, you used to know better." But they never actually says what it does take. D'Hoffryn immolates her later, so we know that works, but beheading never comes up.

Yes, the humiliation aspects of Him give me the heebee jeebees. The hilarity of the "Theme from a Summer Place" doesn't quite make up for it. (I really like the Charlie's Angels-style split screen for the action, though.)

[snickfic]

I strongly disliked this episode the first time I watched it, for both the humiliation aspect and the severe Do Not Want of RJ/Buffy, but I did manage to find some aspects I liked this time around. And yes, the split screen bit was great. :)

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Him is an episode I really enjoyed. One of few humorous ones in a steadily grimmer season. I loved the scenes of an oblivious Wood in his office while all the wrestling, chasing, bazooka waving is going on in the background. I remember laughing aloud at it. I also liked the Xander-Spike working together stuff. (loves some Xander-Spike friendship). The fawning over RJ didn't bother me because it wasn't real - it was just the jacket's spell, so they weren't responsible. I'm sure they were ashamed of themselves afterwards. :)

[next_to_normal]

And again, I'm really liking the Anya/Willow friendship developing here

I always liked it, too. And it seemed like it indicated that jealousy over Xander was really all that was keeping them from being friends before, which is a shame. But then the friendship thing kind of doesn't go anywhere (thank you, Potentials), which is also a shame.

Dawn raises all those questions about souled!Spike and Buffy's feelings for same, which are great questions inelegantly phrased, made much more frustrating for that fact that, on the former topic, at least, we never get any proper exploration. Argh!

Agreed. I find that conversation on the bleachers immensely dissatisfying.