So, I finally got around to watching NFA...

[snick_backup]

Yes. Really. My viewing of Angel was not so much linear as idiosyncratic (I'll finish S4 one of these days), and I've been saving NFA all this time largely because it was the last new Spike footage ever. *sob*

In most ways I found it quite satisfying. The "last day alive" shtick meant lots of good character moments all down the line: Angel and Connor, Gunn and Anne (I will never not love that "Chanterelle" stuck around so long, nor that Buffy's namesake appeared in the final ep), Wes and Illyria, Spike (who apparently bothered to remember that atrocious poem all this time, but hey, at least now we know that someone writing for Ats watched at least part of one ep of Buffy). Lorne's stage exit felt not happy, but bitterly appropriate: it's what happens to folks who hang around Angel too long.

I was ticked about Lindsey, though. It's the only time I can think of that the "free will" question was raised with respect to Lorne's empath abilities, and it was effective, and yet Angel's decision to have Lindsey executed was just plain wrong, not to mention strategically unfortunate. Every time Lindsey tried to cross over, Angel shoved him back.

Harmony was an interesting echo of the same failing on Angel's part. She arguably had more excuse for evil-doing than Lindsey had - soulless vampire, here - but I can't help but think she might have been redeemable. Then again, Disharmony suggests perhaps not. Still, if she's person enough to pay to answer your phone and do your typing, then she's person enough to treat like a person.

Overall, I was pleased. In fact, as a final nod to the characters and the universe, I liked it a whole lot better than Chosen.

Comments

[hexebusterjaxon.livejournal.com]

So, in your opinion, what do you think happened to them?? I'm guessing they probably "died" (but not according to the comics I guess).
I was quite sad when I watched this ep, like losing a friend : (

[snickfic]

I've read far too much post-NFA fanfic at this point to believe that they died. In my post-series scenarios, the Slayer army drops in and saves the day. Then there's a Spuffy reunion and much happy-ever-afterness.

ETA: Also, welcome! I noticed you friended me the other day. Glad to have you along for the conversation. :)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

¡Yay! I've been hoping you'd get around to this eventually. Now you can go read this fun meta on Spike's final poem:

http://pfeifferpack.livejournal.com/431147.html

One of my favorite post-NFA fics was when the Army, courtesy of Finn, dropped in to blow the #$%& out of the demon army and then mop up after, thereby thwarting Angel's suicide run, and leaving Buffy and Spike to catch up without any major battle injuries to overcome. Heh. The anti-climax was hilarious. (Must find link...)

[quinara]

but I can't help but think she might have been redeemable. Then again, Disharmony suggests perhaps not.

I absolutely thing Harmony could have been redeemable - I just don't think you can expect loyalty from someone you mostly treat like crap, which Angel did for most of S5. (Disharmony equally showed the gang expecting too much too soon, mostly because they wanted rid of her.)

I found NFA very dissatisfying at the time, mostly because I couldn't buy the ending as a grand statement about the ongoing fight (in the Buffyverse the odds are always like that and they always win, so to me that was the foregone implication), so much as a slightly lazy cliffhanger that didn't resolve the issues of the season. I don't know whether I'd enjoy it more it if I came to it now.

[deird1]

My very favourite post-NFA ficlet had an army show up to help them... but instead of the Slayers, it included Kate, Gwen, David Nabbit, the telekinetic chick, and hundreds of other people the Fang Gang had helped. :) It was so nice.

[next_to_normal]

Awwwwwww!

[snickfic]

I couldn't buy the ending as a grand statement about the ongoing fight (in the Buffyverse the odds are always like that and they always win, so to me that was the foregone implication

Heh. Yes, I can definitely see the argument that way. Then again, I doubt I'd buy that statement regardless of how it was presented to me, and I discard most of the grand themes on Ats anyway.

I just don't think you can expect loyalty from someone you mostly treat like crap, which Angel did for most of S5.

Precisely. It's back to that "treat them like a person" idea.

One of these days I really must get around to reading mabus101's big saga. I know he has a re-ensouled and semi-redeemed Harmony in there, although of course soulled redemption vs. soulless redemption is part of the issue, isn't it?

[snickfic]

That is fun! Thanks for the link.

I have trouble taking hardly anything about Ats seriously, and I am all for anti-climactic resolution of NFA. It's kind of like Buffy S4 that way - since the whole doesn't mean a lot to me, I'm perfectly okay with subverting any or all of the pieces. :)

[snickfic]

Awwww. I think I might suffocate under the schmoop, but that does indeed sound very "nice." *g*

[quinara]

although of course soulled redemption vs. soulless redemption is part of the issue, isn't it?

Yeah, I think so. I'm sure we've talked about this several times(!), but even though I'm one of those people that can buy Spike going to get (and receiving) his soul as a metaphor for redemption - because to me 'redemption' in a meaningful sense for vampires has to be an understanding of the evil they've done (and what is that but the Buffyverse soul?) - I still think there are problems in the way the soul issue is dealt with. Like too many things on Buffy it's dead easy to read it as the complete opposite (say with the soul as a metaphor for suicide). We never really got the story where we find out what happens if you treat something evil-yet-incapacitated with compasssion...

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

Do you have a link for that fic? I would LOVE to read it. Love it. :)

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

I totally preferred NFA over Chosen but I think that's beacause I'm a bigger ATS fan than a BTVS fan.

Lindsey's death still sits strangely with me and for the same reasons. I thought the whole point of Angel was redemption, was doing good, changing the future (if not, then why did Cordelia get visions). I guess since Lorne could see people's soul, he saw Lindsey's was bad? I don't know. It's a plothole I do not like at all.

Meh on Season Four. You ain't missing much imho.

[deird1]

Unfortunately not. :( I've tried to find it again a few times, but never managed it.

[deird1]

Meh on Season Four. You ain't missing much imho.

But - Lilah! Wes and Lilah! Gwen! Faith and Wes working together! Connor and Angel singing the "Mandy" remix on open mic night! Everyone as teenagers!

(I rather love season 4 - except for the plot. That's stupid and insane. But all the little non-plot bits, they're fun...)

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

I totally fast forward past all the plotty bits just for the good stuff. Takes me a few hours to watch all of Season Four, including time to change the discs and get a snack. LOL

I think the season is better that way.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

NFA was a very satisfying conclusion, IMO, and leagues better than "Chosen."

Every time Lindsey tried to cross over, Angel shoved him back.

Disagree--I think it was s1, when Angel and Lindsey worked together...something involving children? But Lindsey went right back to W&H when they offered him a promotion. I don't agree with what Angel and Lorne did, but I see why Angel would think that Lindsey would flip flop. Same with Harm, but only because she's a flake. However, I do think that if Angel had brought her in on the big finale, that she wouldn't have let them all down.

[snickfic]

I rather love season 4 - except for the plot. That's stupid and insane. But all the little non-plot bits, they're fun...

Ah. So, much like BtVS S4, then.

I do mean to watch it one of these days, probably before I write Faith in any serious way.

[snickfic]

We never really got the story where we find out what happens if you treat something evil-yet-incapacitated with compasssion...

Exactly. Honestly, I think it's because the scenario would have shown too clearly the holes in the worldbuilding. It's not a situation that they left room for.

[snickfic]

I guess since Lorne could see people's soul, he saw Lindsey's was bad? I don't know.

I believe that was the implication. Lorne had read Lindsey's soul and saw that he would go off the rails again at some point, and Angel decided better get rid of him before he becomes a liability (but after, you notice, he helpfully dispatches all those demons).

I see it as unwillingness on Angel's part to give others (Lindsey, Harmony) the benefit of the doubt or any chance at redemption, partly because he's holding a grudge (against Lindsey, especially) and partly because it'd complicate his own soul/no-soul white/black understanding of morality (Harmony here). Look at how he treats Spike in early S5 - even with a soul, which is supposed to be the key, he's pretty nasty to Spike a lot of the time, even though he never even knew Spike before when he had a soul.

However, here we're coming up against the fact that I just don't like Angel a lot of the time, and am disinclined to give him the benefit of the doubt when trying to explain things. I know you're a bigger fan of him than I am. :)

There are things in S4 I want to see: Faith, Wes/Lilah, some of the Connor&Angel stuff I've heard about, the Willow crossover ep. I'm going to watch it one of these days, in order to write Faith if for no other reason.

[snickfic]

But Lindsey went right back to W&H when they offered him a promotion.

True. But that's after Angel aggressively disdains every effort Lindsey makes. (The episode is Blind Date, BTW). Angel expects him to turn back to W&H and tells him so at every opportunity. There's no support there at all.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

But if he really wanted to change and stay that way, he would have in spite of Angel's comments. It's not as if Angel was anyone of real importance to him, so his opinion shouldn't have mattered.

Also, I'm grading him on a Spike scale, which probably isn't fair :p

[snickfic]

But if he really wanted to change and stay that way, he would have in spite of Angel's comments.

True. Here I think my point is that Angel is a whole lot less supportive of folks seeking redemption than you'd expect of someone who claims to want it so badly for himself. That's all.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Hrm...I will have to ponder this and other examples.

Maybe it's bias, but he was pretty understanding with human!Darla and later, Spike.

<--can't think of other examples, but is sure there are some. Needs a rewatch :/

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Angel and Connor, Gunn and Anne (I will never not love that "Chanterelle" stuck around so long, nor that Buffy's namesake appeared in the final ep), Wes and Illyria, Spike (who apparently bothered to remember that atrocious poem all this time, but hey, at least now we know that someone writing for Ats watched at least part of one ep of Buffy). Lorne's stage exit felt not happy, but bitterly appropriate: it's what happens to folks who hang around Angel too long.


Yup, those are all things I love, too! I always wish we could have seen more of Anne on AtS.

yet Angel's decision to have Lindsey executed was just plain wrong, not to mention strategically unfortunate. Every time Lindsey tried to cross over, Angel shoved him back.

Exactly. It's one of my biggest criticisms of Angel: I always want to demand who he is to decide that Lindsey was worthy of death.

Still, if she's person enough to pay to answer your phone and do your typing, then she's person enough to treat like a person.

Yup. I don't think she could ever be redeemed, because I don't think she'd ever want to be good. But I think she could be sort of a moral neutral: not hurting anyone but not altruistic. And that's not a bad lot on the show.

Which pains me to say because you know I think anyone can be redeemed. But this is the 'verse we're talking about.

It is quite a good episode, isn't it? I generally like it even if Angel's choices make zero moral or logical sense.

[snickfic]

I always wish we could have seen more of Anne on AtS.

Yes. It occurs to me that she serves a similar purpose that Kate Lockley did: she provides the viewpoint of an outsider who really has more important concerns than a bunch of demon-hunters preventing the apocalypse. People gotta sleep someplace, you know? It's a very refreshing perspective for a show that usually feels like it's taking itself a wee bit too seriously.

I don't think she could ever be redeemed, because I don't think she'd ever want to be good.

I dunno. Maybe, like Spike, what she needs is a good enough motivator? It isn't as though I think all vampires have some motivation that you could lure them to redemption with; just that Harm seems to care less about the vampiric lifestyle than a lot of them do.

Or maybe what I'm thinking of really just is a sort of moral neutral, like you say.

It is quite a good episode, isn't it?

It is! After a pretty cracktastic season, on the whole, and an entire series drowning in angst and despair (which yet somehow feels totally different than the angst and the despair of the Buffyverse, which contrast is a topic that probably deserves a blog post), this felt almost light-hearted, in a very heartfelt sort of way. Meaningful.

ETA: Would you up for beta'ing something if I sent it to you this weekend? It'll probably be in the 4-5k range. I want to post it on my birthday next week (stealing your idea, which I think is fabulous).